Ottomans in World War 2

Assuming the Ottomans stay neutral in World War 1. in addition world war 2 butterflies as little as possible so as to have a war that resembles otl as much as possible (work with me here), what effect would they have on the outcome of the war if they joined the allies or the axis? (their military capability is no worse than Romania but no stronger than Japan)
 
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Neutral OE would make whole WW1 totally different. Some frontiers fewer. Russians haven't deal with Caucaus and Brits have not send troops to Middle East. So Russians and Brits would have more men in Eastern Front and Western Front. It is too possible that Bulgaria remain neutral. Perhaps even Greece too. So situation in Balkans would be very different. Serbia would have fight only with Austria-Hungary.

So this might mean that CPs will lost faster and such butterfly WW2 away at least such as we know that. You just can't take one major player away and assume that all things would be same.
 
Assuming the Ottomans stay neutral in World War 1. in addition world war 2 butterflies as little as possible so as to have a war that resembles otl as much as possible (work with me here), what effect would they have on the outcome of the war if they joined the allies or the axis? (their military capability is no worse than Romania but no stronger than Japan)

Well, joining the Allies at any point of relevance is basically suicidal (the Germans would shell Konstantinyye into a pile of rubble with their Balkan clients in tow,and the Allies have little they can do to stop it), so the Axis is really the likely option: probably as a result of being overawed and arm-twisted by Germany. The first issue is going to be Egypt: thats gone for Britain, and with it the Italians get some breathing space both on land and navally. You also can factor in Mosul and Gulf oil for the Axis, since the Ottomans would no doubt have had the local infastructure built up for export in the meantime, which probably goes to making sure the Axis forces in Eastern Europe and the Med. have sufficent gas in the tank to operate at a greater capacity,while exclusive access to Turkish chromite would increase steel production capacity and the ability to build solid aircraft engines
 
Neutral OE would make whole WW1 totally different. Some frontiers fewer. Russians haven't deal with Caucaus and Brits have not send troops to Middle East. So Russians and Brits would have more men in Eastern Front and Western Front. It is too possible that Bulgaria remain neutral. Perhaps even Greece too. So situation in Balkans would be very different. Serbia would have fight only with Austria-Hungary.

So this might mean that CPs will lost faster and such butterfly WW2 away at least such as we know that. You just can't take one major player away and assume that all things would be same.
It does not need to be exactly the same just similar enough to resemble otl WW2 so we can use what was roughly otl as a reference point in order to simplify the discussion, so we can spend more focus primarily on the subject of the thread. I put the disclaimer in because I have seen a fair number get bogged down in similar talk but I think we can agree that a revanchist Germany and could happen, italy is still unhappy and japan is imperialist so once more for the purpose of conversation a similar world could happen
 
Well, joining the Allies at any point of relevance is basically suicidal (the Germans would shell Konstantinyye into a pile of rubble with their Balkan clients in tow,and the Allies have little they can do to stop it), so the Axis is really the likely option: probably as a result of being overawed and arm-twisted by Germany. The first issue is going to be Egypt: thats gone for Britain, and with it the Italians get some breathing space both on land and navally. You also can factor in Mosul and Gulf oil for the Axis, since the Ottomans would no doubt have had the local infastructure built up for export in the meantime, which probably goes to making sure the Axis forces in Eastern Europe and the Med. have sufficent gas in the tank to operate at a greater capacity,while exclusive access to Turkish chromite would increase steel production capacity and the ability to build solid aircraft engines
The only point that comes to mind I could see them joining the allies would be if Germany stalling or failing like otl 1943-1945 and Churchill works out an agreement (technological, monetary, territorial bribe?) with them in order to start that bulken front he's always talking about ;) .
 
It does not need to be exactly the same just similar enough to resemble otl WW2 so we can use what was roughly otl as a reference point in order to simplify the discussion, so we can spend more focus primarily on the subject of the thread. I put the disclaimer in because I have seen a fair number get bogged down in similar talk but I think we can agree that a revanchist Germany and could happen, italy is still unhappy and japan is imperialist so once more for the purpose of conversation a similar world could happen
If axis takes the eygipt/the Suez like you say does that push Spain to join the war on there or does it incentivize hitler to properly bribe them with whatever they ask so they can get gebralter and close the mediteranian?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
A neutral, non-belligerent OE would not survive long enough to experience a WW 2 being torn apart by the winner(s) of such a WW 1... regardless who would win WW 1.
 
I'm not really sure why they would do things that differently from Turkey in our own time. I mean all the European nations who were neutral in the first war and were a part of the second were all countries that got invaded.
 
I have read an Alt Hist short, where the W Allies focus on the Med in 1943 and 1944 and make it the deciding theatre instead of a build up in 43 and cross channel crossing in 44.

With this, Ottoman flanks are secured and join the Allies in 44
 
A neutral, non-belligerent OE would not survive long enough to experience a WW 2 being torn apart by the winner(s) of such a WW 1... regardless who would win WW 1.

Why victors would torn OE if it was neutral? It would looks pretty bad for them going against independent nation. It is possible that they puppetise OE but hardly divide that.
 

Germaniac

Donor
I really depends on the circumstances. I wholeheartedly disagree that the Ottomans couldn't survive, but who is in power in Istanbul?

By the late 30s the Ottomans would have already begun pumping oil and their military (saved from the destruction during WW1) is more than powerful enough to defend its borders.

Joining the Axis? They would look to taking Cyprus, Egypt, Kuwait, and expansion in the Caucasus.
Joining the Allies? They would want to reverse Italian conquests in 1911 and perhaps Italian Eritrea and Somalia.
 
Depending on how the Entete wins the war, Russians can claims Constantinople too, also if OE stayed neutral (was one of the reasons Enver chose Germany

Admitting a neutral OE, and admittitting an outcome similar to OTL, with Russia out for communism and Austria collapsed; the possibilities are three
1) A German invasion to reach Iraq and its oil fields, so OE joins allies.
2) OE chooses Germany to take back from Russia Caucasus (or at least the lands take in XIX century) and/or to be not shared by France and England and Italy(so, becoming an Axis power could save them from further Italian expansion at least).
3) Stayed neutral, trying to pass as a shield against communism.
 
what's the consensus on the borders of surviving OE, they had problems unrelated to their entry into WWI, admittedly made worse by that decision?

my own view they probably could have held on to Mosul and Aleppo.
 
Assuming the Ottomans stay neutral in World War 1. in addition world war 2 butterflies as little as possible so as to have a war that resembles otl as much as possible (work with me here), what effect would they have on the outcome of the war if they joined the allies or the axis? (their military capability is no worse than Romania but no stronger than Japan)

The Ottoman Military was reorganising by the time they joined WWI. Without the occupation, the discovery of oil, the continuing industrialisation and the manpower spared... the Ottomans will be bit by bit better than OTL Republic.

If your TL also has Russia collapsing and turning red it might get interesting in the Caucasus. Assuming the war is not joined and the Ottomans remain pro-British Azerbaijan might be secured (or evacuated later, depends on how many Russian soldiers are saved).

It will be much stronger than OTL Republic that for sure.
 
what's the consensus on the borders of surviving OE, they had problems unrelated to their entry into WWI, admittedly made worse by that decision?

my own view they probably could have held on to Mosul and Aleppo.

No participation is no Arab Revolt. So anything between Edirne to Sanaa and Basra to Trabzon.
 
what's the consensus on the borders of surviving OE, they had problems unrelated to their entry into WWI, admittedly made worse by that decision?

my own view they probably could have held on to Mosul and Aleppo.

No participation is no Arab Revolt. So anything between Edirne to Sanaa and Basra to Trabzon.

there was post WWI conflict with Greece and Arab revolts against the British, rather than WWII this might be the most interesting period for surviving OE. (with Arab Nationalists contending with continued Ottoman rule rather than British)
 
there was post WWI conflict with Greece and Arab revolts against the British, rather than WWII this might be the most interesting period for surviving OE. (with Arab Nationalists contending with continued Ottoman rule rather than British)

That is after the Ottomans joined the War. Not joining means avoiding that. And the Ottomans not joining will most likely result in Bulgaria not joining (to prevent an Ottoman Invasion). Which means Greece won't get Western Thrace.

The Arabs revolted after Ottoman Rule was replaced with a British one. If that does not happen it won't likely happen.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Why victors would torn OE if it was neutral? It would looks pretty bad for them going against independent nation. It is possible that they puppetise OE but hardly divide that.
... not at least as they (the Entente powers) had begun with this already well before the Great War.
 
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