Ottomans as Romans

yourworstnightmare

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Leo was a foreign invader now? Leo was not a native of the Roman Empire?

The Komnenoi had not become, essentially, "Greek"? (I've read they were originally Armenian, but it was on That Site, I think, so I'd love to see one or the other backed up if someone has the information - no position to make an argument on it, but sources would be good)

Same with the so-called Macedonians. Basil I was definitely an Armenian, but the Armenians were part of the Roman state. The Ottomans weren't.

This would be like the difference between the son of a Mexican immigrant (or grandson or however many generations back) becoming president of the United States, versus Ireland annexing the United States.

To put it this way, the Ottomans were foreign invaders who took over the Roman state and established their new state on its ruins.

To their credit, they took advantage of those ruins to enhance their state and kept the culture around without persecution, as opposed to how the Latins were filthy barbarians who never even tried anything enlightened or even sensible. :mad:

Yes, I do support the "better the sultan's turban..." stance. And I'm not Greek or Orthodox.

Just irate at the stupidity of anyone who can take Constantinople and leave it to rot instead of taking advantage of it being a great city. The Ottomans restoring it to its former glory is one of the reasons I'm more-or-less okay (and sometimes pleased) with them despite the irrational part of my brain resenting their conquest

And with that logic the Qing dynasty were not Chinese Emperors.
 
And with that logic the Qing dynasty were not Chinese Emperors.

Is this supposed to convince me?

Asking because I know too little on either China or the Qing to measure how much they would not be Chinese by this on my own.

I do want to know why some Byzantine construct happens in place of the Roman Empire when the government (society already is largely Greek speaking) moves to using Greek and Latin becomes a dead language, but we're supposed to see the Ottomans as being Roman/Byzantine because...they said they were, even if they're a different state than the Empire of Nicaea descended state in Constantinople (whether that state counts as a continuation of the pre-1204 state being another question).

Saying this in order that we know what the other is meaning by saying someone is or isn't Roman - whether we agree on the definition of Roman or not, we should at least have an idea of whether or not the Ottomans meet the criteria proposed by the definition given.

If that makes sense.
 
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The Ottomans also married more than several women belonging to the Byzantine imperial families, so they have a blood connection.
 
And with that logic the Qing dynasty were not Chinese Emperors.

They were and they weren't. The Jurchids had become sinicized long long before they made a crack at China. Then again, the Manchus have for all intents and purposes ceased to exist as an independent ethnic group in China. It's one of those "I don't know" sort of questions.

If the Ottomans were a cadet branch of the Komnenids...well, there you go.
 
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scholar

Banned
They were and they weren't. The Jurchids had become sinicized long long before they made a crack at China. Then again, the Manchus have for all intents and purposes ceased to exist as an independent ethnic group in China. It's one of those "I don't know" sort of questions.
The Manchurians adopted almost all Chinese customs, but tried desperately to keep themselves from fading into Chinese society mainly by separating the Chinese from them in a class hierarchy. Even so the Manchurian language began to die long before the ROC kicked them out. Most Manchurians wore Chinese styled cloths, were fully a part of Chinese culture, and many other similarities they are, for all intents and purposes, Chinese. Mainly because Chinese wasn't actually an ethnicity, it was a social structure. The Confucian Ethic and quite a few other things. Granted there is an ethnicity known as Han Chinese, but to be Chinese was distinct from this. It normally just meant sinicized. There were Persians who fled there after the fall of the Sassanids who came to China, adopted Chinese customs, and were granted nobility titles. The Chinese government saw them as Chinese and that was the end of it.
 
The Manchurians adopted almost all Chinese customs, but tried desperately to keep themselves from fading into Chinese society mainly by separating the Chinese from them in a class hierarchy. Even so the Manchurian language began to die long before the ROC kicked them out. Most Manchurians wore Chinese styled cloths, were fully a part of Chinese culture, and many other similarities they are, for all intents and purposes, Chinese. Mainly because Chinese wasn't actually an ethnicity, it was a social structure. The Confucian Ethic and quite a few other things. Granted there is an ethnicity known as Han Chinese, but to be Chinese was distinct from this. It normally just meant sinicized. There were Persians who fled there after the fall of the Sassanids who came to China, adopted Chinese customs, and were granted nobility titles. The Chinese government saw them as Chinese and that was the end of it.

Yes. I know.
 
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