Ottoman Interregnum: Could the Ottomans Have Collapsed in the 1400s?

[Bee]

Some possibilities:

If Timur's empire survives as a major power long after his death, the Ottomans could be reduced to a vassal state.

If all of Bayezid's sons divide the empire, so that all of them have a kingdom of their own.

Through any combination of civil war, assassination and epidemic, the dynasty goes extinct.

 

[eliphas8]

Not to mention that the Karamanids used the Star of David on their flags, which could mean that the Karamnids can become an empire of three faiths. Alternatively, they could even destroy the House of Osman simply by having the entire family killed. I'm also wondering if it would be possible for the Karamanids to actually conquer Persia as well. Of course, this is after Timur dies.

Actually its not the Star of David is a separate Islamic symbol more common at the time called the "seal of suleiman" in reference to king Solomon's signet ring which had the same design supposedly.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

With those deadly combinations, I can imagine the Timurids and the Karamanids fighting each other for control over Anatolia after the House of Osman becomes extinct. There is one additional benefit to all of this: the Balkans would be free from Ottoman domination, which may result in a Christian Albania (presumably either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) and a surviving Bogomilist Christian Bosnia. Barring that, the Serbian Empire and the Byzantine Empire could come under a dynastic union.

 

[Elfwine]

With those deadly combinations, I can imagine the Timurids and the Karamanids fighting each other for control over Anatolia after the House of Osman becomes extinct. There is one additional benefit to all of this: the Balkans would be free from Ottoman domination, which may result in a Christian Albania (presumably either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) and a surviving Bogomilist Christian Bosnia. Barring that, the Serbian Empire and the Byzantine Empire could come under a dynastic union.

Remind me why "free of Ottoman domination" is a plus again?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Free from Ottoman domination is a plus because it would not only preserve Hungary as a major power, but it would butterfly the major sectarian violence that plagued the Balkans IOTL. Balkan states that became Muslim IOTL would reman a Christian nation, and not much was told on what would the effects of a surviving Bogomilist Bosnian Kingdom would be like.

 

[Elfwine]

Free from Ottoman domination is a plus because it would not only preserve Hungary as a major power, but it would butterfly the major sectarian violence that plagued the Balkans IOTL. Balkan states that became Muslim IOTL would reman a Christian nation, and not much was told on what would the effects of a surviving Bogomilist Bosnian Kingdom would be like.

Hungary as a major power is not something I'd necessarily consider an improvement.

As for sectarian violence . . . Catholic Hungary as a major power is Catholic Hungary meddling in the Balkans. Fun times.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

But in this case Catholic Hungary would be the wedge between her minor Balkan vassals and the HRE. There may be a downside to this as well: without the Ottomans around, European exploration and colonization of the Americas would be delayed.

 

[Elfwine]

But in this case Catholic Hungary would be the wedge between her minor Balkan vassals and the HRE. There may be a downside to this as well: without the Ottomans around, European exploration and colonization of the Americas would be delayed.

And . . . um . . why do we want that?

Catholic Hungary was not a moderate place.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I'm not sure if the Karamanids would be a good replacement for the Ottomans though.

 

[Henriksson]

There may be a downside to this as well: without the Ottomans around, European exploration and colonization of the Americas would be delayed.

All those hundreds of millions of people in the Americas that died due to European exploration and colonization get to live longer.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

All those hundreds of millions of people in the Americas that died due to European exploration and colonization get to live longer.

Plus the Aztecs and the Incas would last a bit longer.

 

[eliphas8]

Plus the Aztecs and the Incas would last a bit longer.

Wait, you are arguing that's a bad thing?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Not a bad thing, a good thing for the Aztecs and Incas to survive, but it will definitely delay the European colonization.

 

[eliphas8]

Not a bad thing, a good thing for the Aztecs and Incas to survive, but it will definitely delay the European colonization.

Well I just fail to see why that's at all that bad. Course I fail to see why Hungarian rule will be at all different for the Balkans rather than Ottoman rule. I mean its not like Hungarian Catholics where at all tolerant of the orthodox (if anything the Ottomans where more tolerant.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I'm also curious as to what would the territorial expansion limit for a surviving Karamanid Dynasty would be like, whether or not they would actually conquer Persia or unite it through a dynastic marriage between a Timurid princess and a Karamanid prince. Although I don't know if the Karamanids would actually try to conquer Europe or not.

 

[Elfwine]

I'm also curious as to what would the territorial expansion limit for a surviving Karamanid Dynasty would be like, whether or not they would actually conquer Persia or unite it through a dynastic marriage between a Timurid princess and a Karamanid prince. Although I don't know if the Karamanids would actually try to conquer Europe or not.

Not sure Muslim polities work like that.

 

[eliphas8]

I'm also curious as to what would the territorial expansion limit for a surviving Karamanid Dynasty would be like, whether or not they would actually conquer Persia or unite it through a dynastic marriage between a Timurid princess and a Karamanid prince. Although I don't know if the Karamanids would actually try to conquer Europe or not.

The dynastic uniting is out of the question, it's just not a very common thing in either culture and most kings had enough sons that it would never matter anyway. I'd say the biggest extent would be all of Anatolia plus Syria.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So would you rule out a Karamanid conquest of Palestine and Mesopotamia?

 

[eliphas8]

So would you rule out a Karamanid conquest of Palestine and Mesopotamia?

The biggest issue I see is that they where always allied with Egypt for most of their history. Mesopotamia is actually more likely due to the Jalayrids being Enemies of the Mamelukes a lot of the time.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So technically we have the Karamanids and Mamluks against the Jalayrids. Then I got a couple more questions: are the Karamanids and Timurids enemies? Can the Byzantines still collapse, even without the Ottomans? More importantly, can the Karamanids succeed or fail in conquering the Balkans?