Ottoman expansion in the Mediterranean Sea

[Fernando Perla]

Hello and thank you for accepting me into this site.
Could Spain have held off Ottoman advance in the Mediterranean, had they not have conquered Mexico and Peru? Thank you.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

Well, in a way the Spanish did hold off the Ottoman advance in the Mediterranean. The Ottomans failed to conquer southern Italy, and Charles V halted the Ottoman invasion of Hungary and Austria.

However you probably mean a Spanish conquest of the Maghreb, or at least a defeat of the Barbary pirates. In that case, you have to go back in time and prevent the Habsburgs from inheriting the Spanish crown. Central European drama will only drag Spain down and distract it from its Mediterranean goals. There was also the Treaty of Alcáçovas in 1479, which gave the Moroccan sphere of influence to Portugal.

Prevent Habsburg Spain, and have Portugal deed North Africa to Spain (perhaps with the Spanish agreeing that the rest of Africa is under Portugal's sphere of influence) and the Kingdom of Spain under the Trastámara dynasty has a significant chance of keeping the Ottomans out of the Maghreb and possibly conquering Morocco.

 

[Fernando Perla]

I know Spanish did hold off the Ottomans (Lepanto). I am asking what would have happened in the Mediterranean Sea if the Spaniards didn't posess Mexico and Peru.

 

[Achaemenid Rome]

I know Spanish did hold off the Ottomans (Lepanto). I am asking what would have happened in the Mediterranean Sea if the Spaniards didn't posess Mexico and Peru.

The gold and silver from Mexico and Peru was mostly used to trade with China and fund wars in continental Europe. At the same time, hyperinflation from excess bullion ultimately harmed the economic development of the Spanish interior.

So if the Aztec and Inca Empires survived, and Mexico and Peru were independent, then Spain would have a more efficient economic base and their military efforts in the Mediterranean would probably be more effective. The Ottomans would most likely still be held back. Though if France turned Protestant (which is possible with a more Mediterranean, less German focused Spain), they could probably consistently ally with the Ottomans to destroy the Austrians.

Also, the Spanish would probably not expel the Moriscos, who were often skilled craftsmen and traders and would be needed to develop the urban centers in Andalusia and Aragon.

 

[tallthinkev]

If Spain doesn't hold back the Ottomans, France or Italy will.

 

[Faeelin]

If Spain doesn't hold back the Ottomans, France or Italy will.

Half the fleet at Lepanto was Italian. So, yea.

But I must say I am always skeptical of the idea that Spain was worse off by getting New World gold. Sure its economy declined in the 15th-18th centuries, but so did most Mediterranean states...

 

[Sulemain]

If Spain doesn't hold back the Ottomans, France or Italy will.

France was allied with the Ottomans.

What Italy?

 

[Gloss]

France was allied with the Ottomans.

What Italy?

At a point the French would stop supporting the Ottomans if those start getting near Rome or deep into the HRE.

The Italian states.



I think though that the Incan and Aztec riches helped Spain in Europe and I would find counterintuitive to say that it actually harmed their effort.

 

[Behemoth]

To clarify about the participants:
Spanish Empire
Republic of Venice
Papal States
Kingdom of Naples
Kingdom of Sicily
Republic of Genoa
Grand Duchy of Tuscany
Duchy of Savoy
Duchy of Urbino
Order of St. John

Interesting article about it here: http://www.academia.edu/1514254/The...lobal_Conflict_on_the_Mediterranean_Periphery

 

[Fernando Perla]

If Spain doesn't hold back the Ottomans, France or Italy will.

France didn't posess a navy at that time and they were more favorauble to the Ottomans than to the Christian states.

 

[EMT]

France didn't posess a navy at that time and they were more favorauble to the Ottomans than to the Christian states.

Yup. France didn't really care all that much what the Ottomans did in the Mediterranean and Central Europe until the alliance started losing its prestige and value. I have a feeling that if the Ottomans overran Vienna early enough, the French would be using the threat of Turkish overlordship to get the French king elected Holy Roman Emperor rather than force a fight against the Turks. I only see the French getting antsy if the Ottomans take all of Naples at a time when they're still adamantly clinging to their Anjou claims, or if the Ottomans overran both Venice and Milan and bordered Savoy.

 

[Gloss]

Yup. France didn't really care all that much what the Ottomans did in the Mediterranean and Central Europe until the alliance started losing its prestige and value. I have a feeling that if the Ottomans overran Vienna early enough, the French would be using the threat of Turkish overlordship to get the French king elected Holy Roman Emperor rather than force a fight against the Turks. I only see the French getting antsy if the Ottomans take all of Naples at a time when they're still adamantly clinging to their Anjou claims, or if the Ottomans overran both Venice and Milan and bordered Savoy.

I don´t think they will wait that much, even with the Ottomans being near mainland Venice will the French stop supporting them.

 

[RGB]

The effort expended on the new world was pretty light compared to the effort spent on the Mediterranean, which was in turn smaller than the effort spent on fighting the wars over the the Hapsburg possessions. I don't think the difference will be that dramatic, really.

 

[Salvador79]

I am diverging from the OP, i know, but: could the Iberians even achieve it if they were still divided into Aragon, Castille-Leon and Navarra?

 

[Gloss]

I am diverging from the OP, i know, but: could the Iberians even achieve it if they were still divided into Aragon, Castille-Leon and Navarra?

Well if they do it together yes, it´s not like they were that united in the 16th century anyway.