Ottoman Balkans Population Map

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

How long of a timespan would this map cover? Does this only work for the late 19th century, or do most of these populations and percentages tend to stay the same throughout the 19th- maybe even the 18th!- century?

Nobody has any idea what the populations were before 1840, and even then info was very spotty. This is a snapshot at about 1874-75. It's likely they were not too much different throughout the 19th c, but there were a lot of wars prior to that where populations may have changed - for example I've read that the Nish area at one time had a Muslim majority - I suppose that's possible if the region had been largely depopulated in wars...

In 1877-78 the balance changed a lot, with Bosnia losing a considerable number of Muslims and Bulgaria losing about 1.3M. That made the remaining parts of the empire in Europe even more heavily Muslim, as most of the refugees ended up in Thrace and Western Macedonia. By the 1880s, the remaining Ottoman Balkans were just over 50% Muslim.

 

[rcduggan]

That's pretty interesting, I never knew so many Bulgarians were further west. Why did they make the state where it was IOTL? Historical reasons, or something else?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

That's pretty interesting, I never knew so many Bulgarians were further west. Why did they make the state where it was IOTL? Historical reasons, or something else?

In the Treaty of San Stefano, signed in early 1878, a huge Bulgaria was created that included all the "yellow" parts of the map and also the Eastern part of Bulgaria on the Black Sea - that was Russia's strategy to dominate the Balkans. The Powers were not willing to see that, so the Conference of Berlin was convened under Bismarck's chair, and as a result, the Treaty of Berlin cut down Bulgaria, returning Macedonia to the Ottomans, and reduced Bulgaria to the portion above the Balkan Mountains, with an autonomous regime in East Rumelia, the portion below the Balkans. Austria-Hungary got Bosnia, Serbia got Nish, Montenegro got some more territory in Albania, Greece was given Thessaly, even though it hadn't been in the war, and Britain got Cyprus - and in exchange for that, France was given a free hand in Tunis. So essentially, the best parts of the empire were partitioned among the Powers and neighboring states, which made nobody happy and started the long slide toward WWI.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I think the remainder of Bogomils were in Bosnia and they converted to Catholicism.

 

[Ibn Warraq]

The Bulgars were never Muslim - they went straight to Orthodoxy, although some converted during the Ottoman period - the Pomaks of the Rhodope Mountains...

In general there was a lot of conversion to Islam in the empire until 1453 - the rejuvenation of the Patriarchy by the Ottomans led to the institution becoming a cultural rallying point and after that conversion trickled away. Ironic, but the Sharia does mandate total religious freedom for Christians and Jews.

Ah, I see. When you mentioned they had converted to Christianity I thought you meant they were initially Muslims. Were they some sort of animists or polytheists originally?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

ah a most interesting map of the 19th C...a different R-T war or none at all and things could most defintiely have evolved differently.

A few idle thoughts, what is the state of affairs at this time between Orthodox Albanians and Greek Orthodox, as well as between the Muslim and Albanian Orthodox.

Would an multi denominational state in Iskodra/Nth. Yanya/Kosovo actually be viable? We are talking the 1870's here....not 20th C.

Greece and Serbia would have to be smaller of course but a more westward centered Bulgar state might be a catalyst. Would such a westward Bulgaria need to be part of the south slav state..or could it exist on its own with what appears to be only the merest strip of territory conecting it to the Aegean. I take it that is the Strymon Valley. There would need to be some kind of accomodation between Bulgaria and the Ottomans to make such a possibility viable. Perhaps some concessions in the south for a prid pro quo further north.

Let me dust of that Balkans map I have been thinking about.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Ah, I see. When you mentioned they had converted to Christianity I thought you meant they were initially Muslims. Were they some sort of animists or polytheists originally?

Nobody really knows. There are pagan Turkic sky Gods - Ataturk tried to replace "Allah" with Tanri (the name of the chief sky god, but that sounded pagan to everyone), but it's possible the Bulgars might have had Iranian religions like Zoroastrianism.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Orthodox Albanians were dominated by the Orthodox Church - this was an impetus to Albanian cultural revival, in an effort not to be swallowed up - and as it turns out a lot of the Orthodox Albanians ended up Hellenized, once Greece conquered the lands in which they lived. Relations between Christian and Muslim Albanians were fine. It would be difficult for an Albanian state to survive in the 1870s as there wasn't a lot of national consciousness - it was actually the Treaty of Berlin that started them down that path as they lost confidence in the Empire to protect them.

I think Bulgaria could exist as an independent state just as, or more easily than as part of a larger South Slav state, which would be pretty unstable.

I don't think there's any way to establish a Bulgarian autonomous state within the context of the Ottoman Empire without it being forced on the Ottomans, since the eventual outcome would likely be independence and would cause the loss of Albania and Bosnia.

There might be movement towards greater local autonomy, but not a Bulgarian territorial principality like Serbia or Wallachia and Moldavia. Those were on the fringes and didn't threaten the dissolution of the empire; the Bulgars, on the other hand, are right smack dab in the middle of the Ottoman Balkans.

ah a most interesting map of the 19th C...a different R-T war or non at all and thing s could most dcefintiely have evolved differently.

A few idle thoughts, what is the state of affairs at this time between Orthodox Albanians and Greek Orthodox, as well as between the Muslim and Albanian Orthodox.

Would an multi denominational state in Iskodra/Nth. Yanya/Kosovo actually be viable? We are talking the 1870's here....not 20th C.

Greece and Serbia would have to be smaller of course but a more westward centered Bulgar state might be a catalyst. Would such a westward Bulgaria need to be part of the south slav state..or could it exist on its own with what appears to be only the merest strip of territory conecting it to the Aegean. I take it that is the Strymon Valley. There would need to be some kind of accomodation between Bulgaria and the Ottomans to make such a possibility viable. Perhaps some concessions in the south for a prid pro quo further north.

Let me dust of that Balkans map I have been thinking about.

 

[Ran Exilis]

Thank you.

I'm not sure about the pre-Ottoman Turkic peoples of Bulgaria - they were Oguz, Pecheneg and Cuman (Kipchak) - the last named probably converted to Islam in the 12th c, I don't know about the rest, but I'm sure no later than that.

So you're saying that the Qipchaqs were Muslim by the 12th century?

That puzzles me a bit...

I know that there were predominately Muslim Qipchaq populations during the 12th century, but then I'm talking about the Qangli, the easternmost Qipchaqs who lived north of the Aral sea and were under Khwarezmian influence.

However, as part of a few ideas for a TL I had a while ago, I did a half decent bit of research on the Qipchaqs (particularly those in the northern Caucasus), and everything (and with that, I mean everything) I found and read about the religion of the Qipchaqs west of the Caspian Sea either suggested or openly stated that they were predominately pagan until the Islamization of the Golden Horde, in spite of various Christian and Muslim attempts to convert them.

There were indeed Muslims and Christians among these Qipchaq communities, and various articles mentioned the existence of (relatively) small communities of Qipchaq and non-Qipchaq Muslims as far west as Hungary, but I have found nothing to indicate that Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) was the main religion of the Qipchaq prior to the Mongol age.

 

[Grand_Panjandrum]

I think the remainder of Bogomils were in Bosnia and they converted to Catholicism.

Actually, most Bogomils in Bosnia and the members of the Bosnian Church, the indigenous Gnostic movement, converted to Islam, rather than Catholicism. The theology of the two is more compatible than with the Catholic. Both were iconoclastic and both denied the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. There is an apocryphal story about how the Sultan was distressed at the large amount of converts, for as Muslims, they would have to serve in the military, but as non-Muslims they would have to pay higher tax, and the Sultan was hoping for more of the latter.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Actually, most Bogomils in Bosnia and the members of the Bosnian Church, the indigenous Gnostic movement, converted to Islam, rather than Catholicism. The theology of the two is more compatible than with the Catholic. Both were iconoclastic and both denied the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. There is an apocryphal story about how the Sultan was distressed at the large amount of converts, for as Muslims, they would have to serve in the military, but as non-Muslims they would have to pay higher tax, and the Sultan was hoping for more of the latter.

I think that largely is just apocryphal. The Bogomil -> Islam idea has been largely abandoned in recent decades. In any case, the taxes from Bosnia would have been negligible .

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Yes, I meant the 1200s.

So you're saying that the Qipchaqs were Muslim by the 12th century?

That puzzles me a bit...

I know that there were predominately Muslim Qipchaq populations during the 12th century, but then I'm talking about the Qangli, the easternmost Qipchaqs who lived north of the Aral sea and were under Khwarezmian influence.

However, as part of a few ideas for a TL I had a while ago, I did a half decent bit of research on the Qipchaqs (particularly those in the northern Caucasus), and everything (and with that, I mean everything) I found and read about the religion of the Qipchaqs west of the Caspian Sea either suggested or openly stated that they were predominately pagan until the Islamization of the Golden Horde, in spite of various Christian and Muslim attempts to convert them.

There were indeed Muslims and Christians among these Qipchaq communities, and various articles mentioned the existence of (relatively) small communities of Qipchaq and non-Qipchaq Muslims as far west as Hungary, but I have found nothing to indicate that Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) was the main religion of the Qipchaq prior to the Mongol age.

 

[Smaug]

Very interesting stuff. I knew the Balkans were convoluted, but never really knew all the reasons behind it. Very nice post.

As much as you occasionally have to defend the Ottomans, they were kinda progressive for thier time. Convert, or pay a bit more taxes. IMO, Orthodox Christians might've barely, and I mean barely, gotten treated better than Muslims.

While I don't plan on converting, it makes you wonder at times, who the bad guys really were. Just sayin......

Granted both sides had exceptionally bad moments

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Very interesting stuff. I knew the Balkans were convoluted, but never really knew all the reasons behind it. Very nice post.

As much as you occasionally have to defend the Ottomans, they were kinda progressive for thier time. Convert, or pay a bit more taxes. IMO, Orthodox Christians might've barely, and I mean barely, gotten treated better than Muslims.

While I don't plan on converting, it makes you wonder at times, who the bad guys really were. Just sayin......

Granted both sides had exceptionally bad moments

In the later 19th c it was much better to be Christian. As there was theoretical universal conscription after 1856, Christians had to pay a small exemption tax, but for the Muslims it was huge - as a result, Christians were heavily advantaged by not having to serve in the military - which took able-bodied men away from their fields and jobs and there was a high mortality rate in the military, with the insufficient transportation network and service in places like Yemen. On top of that you could either get European citizenship and be exempt from taxes and even Ottoman law in general, and could appeal to foreign consuls to support you in business disputes with Muslims - always to your advantage.

 

[Jasen777]

I'm confused by the mix of religion and ethnicity. For instance, if a province says:

Muslim - x%
Serb - y%
Croat - z%

What are the Muslims? Are they Serbs and Croats who are Muslims?

 

[Hermanubis]

I'm confused by the mix of religion and ethnicity. For instance, if a province says:

Muslim - x%
Serb - y%
Croat - z%

What are the Muslims? Are they Serbs and Croats who are Muslims?

I'd assume that:

Serb= Orthodox Christian

Croat = Catholic Christian

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I'm confused by the mix of religion and ethnicity. For instance, if a province says:

Muslim - x%
Serb - y%
Croat - z%

What are the Muslims? Are they Serbs and Croats who are Muslims?

Ethnically there's no difference in Bosnia - there may be a few Turks in the Muslim category, probably a few Gypsies in all of them. In Bulgaria most of te Muslims are Turks, with some Bulgarian Muslims, and in Albania, they're Albanians.

 

[Nicksplace27]

In the later 19th c it was much better to be Christian. As there was theoretical universal conscription after 1856, Christians had to pay a small exemption tax, but for the Muslims it was huge - as a result, Christians were heavily advantaged by not having to serve in the military - which took able-bodied men away from their fields and jobs and there was a high mortality rate in the military, with the insufficient transportation network and service in places like Yemen. On top of that you could either get European citizenship and be exempt from taxes and even Ottoman law in general, and could appeal to foreign consuls to support you in business disputes with Muslims - always to your advantage.

You make it sound like every Croat has friends in high places in Western Europe back then. While to some extent, I believe you may be right in a small respect there still was a lot of strife among the christians and muslims back then.

I qoute from The Eastern question from the Treaty of Paris 1836 to the Treaty of Berlin 1878 and to the Second Afghan War ([1879])

Author: George Douglas Campbell

However, some key aspects of Dhimmi status was retained, for example the testimony of Christians against Muslims was not accepted in courts, which granted Muslims effective immunity for offenses conducted against Christians. Although on a local level, relations between communities were often good, this practice encouraged the worst elements of Muslim society to exploit the situation. The abuses were at their worst in regions with a predominantly Christian population, mainly located in the European part of the empire, where local authorities often openly supported them as a means to keep Christians subjugated.

I don't want to start a huge flame war but i think the situation wasn't completely sunny pre 1878. Not that it can't be reconciled though.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

That was no longer the case in the 19th c. I don't think a book written in 1879 is a very reliable source, do you? I've read that, and let's just say Campbell is not exactly pro-Ottoman. Or remotely neutral.

There were secular courts in operation where Christian testimony was taken the same as anyone else's. The religious courts - and all the faiths had them - were gradually restricted to family matters.

In a system where Muslims were predominant in administration, there is no doubt that there were abuses committed, but not particularly directed at Christians - more like equal opportunity exploitation. Most Europeans didn't give a rat's ass what happened to Muslims, though. The revolt in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for instance, wasn't sectarian, it was a general revolt against tax policy.

And in any case, I would rather be a Christian under Ottoman rule than a Muslim under British rule! There were Christian ministers and parliamentarians in the Ottoman government - no Muslims in the British, or any other European gov't - I think we have a double standard.

Of course the picture wasn't "all sunny" - but was it anywhere? This is only a few years after the Franco-Prussian War and the Paris Commune...

You make it sound like every Croat has friends in high places in Western Europe back then. While to some extent, I believe you may be right in a small respect there still was a lot of strife among the christians and muslims back then.

I qoute from The Eastern question from the Treaty of Paris 1836 to the Treaty of Berlin 1878 and to the Second Afghan War ([1879])

Author: George Douglas Campbell



I don't want to start a huge flame war but i think the situation wasn't completely sunny pre 1878. Not that it can't be reconciled though.

 

[fortyseven]

Interesting map. I've seen a map like this before.