Ottoman Balkan Christian Kingdom and the Ottoman Anatolia Muslim Sultanate

That's right folks, two Ottoman States exist. One state is a Christian empire consisting of all Ottoman possessions in Europe up to 1451 plus Byzantine lands and the other is a Muslim sultanate made up of all Ottoman territories in Asia Minor up to 1451. Both Ottoman states are roughly equal in power and fiercely hate each other. Warfare between both states breaks out every few years it seems, but nether side can force anything but a pre-war boarder when the dust settles. How did such a thing happen? It is a very interesting tale.

It is well known that before the Ottomans (Muslim branch) started locking up their princes so that the new sultan could have his brothers executed, the Ottomans would have the princes govern provinces with whoever could get to the capital the quickest after the previous sultan's death becoming the new sultan. It is from this practice that the Christian branch of the Ottoman dynasty arose. An Ottoman prince in a (relatively) far away Balkan province found out that his father had died and that his brother had proclaimed himself sultan. Knowing of his brother's hatred for him, this Ottoman prince carefully examined his situation. He had few troops and he knew that several of his lieutenants were in his brother's pocket.

Not wanting to die or be imprisoned, the prince pursued an unthinkable solution. He had the servants poison his questionably loyal troops, called the leaders of the city he was staying in, and then renounced Islam and requested to be baptized. The prince claimed to have received a visit from an angel that proclaimed to him the true of the Gospel and that it was his duty to free the followers of Christ from the yoke of his unbelieving brother. While many believe that the prince was just making up a story to win support, many in the Balkans believe that the prince was telling the truth. Whatever the case, the prince was able after seven long years to unite the various Balkan peoples under his banner and forced his brother to accept the newly formed Balkan Empire as an accomplished fact. The christian prince secured the christian branch of the Ottomans by marrying a Byzantine princess. His grandson would eventually come to inherit the remains of the Byzantine Empire.

So, what do you all think of this scenario with two radically different Ottoman states? Now before anyone calls ASBs on this, think for a moment. History is full of cases where people take a majorly risky gamble for power that most would wager wouldn't pay off and it works big time. Cyrus the Great, William the Conqueror, Genghis Khan (seriously, no one would have bet on him until he started looting China) to name a few. There are also plenty of cases of royalty and other power figures converting to a new religion or a religion that they previously opposed if they think that such a conversion will beneifit their power base. In this case, the Ottoman prince is S.O.L. in traditional Ottoman power since his brother is the sultan and has several of the princes subordinates in his back pocket. The only hope the prince had for a shot at power (and staying alive) was to throw his lot in with the christian population. A very risky gamble, but in this senario the prince managed to pull it off.
 

Keenir

Banned
It is well known that before the Ottomans (Muslim branch) started locking up their princes so that the new sultan could have his brothers executed, the Ottomans would have the princes govern provinces with whoever could get to the capital the quickest after the previous sultan's death becoming the new sultan. It is from this practice that the Christian branch of the Ottoman dynasty arose. An Ottoman prince in a (relatively) far away Balkan province found out that his father had died and that his brother had proclaimed himself sultan.

sounds like he was born last and to the concubine their dad liked the least. ;)


Not wanting to die or be imprisoned, the prince pursued an unthinkable solution. He had the servants poison his questionably loyal troops, called the leaders of the city he was staying in, and then renounced Islam and requested to be baptized. The prince claimed to have received a visit from an angel that proclaimed to him the true of the Gospel and that it was his duty to free the followers of Christ from the yoke of his unbelieving brother.

normally people went to the Ottomans to get away from the Christian neighbor-states.

While many believe that the prince was just making up a story to win support, many in the Balkans believe that the prince was telling the truth. Whatever the case, the prince was able after seven long years to unite the various Balkan peoples under his banner and forced his brother to accept the newly formed Balkan Empire as an accomplished fact. The christian prince secured the christian branch of the Ottomans by marrying a Byzantine princess. His grandson would eventually come to inherit the remains of the Byzantine Empire.

. There are also plenty of cases of royalty and other power figures converting to a new religion or a religion that they previously opposed if they think that such a conversion will beneifit their power base.

very true. except they tend to have a power base before their conversion.

In this case, the Ottoman prince is S.O.L. in traditional Ottoman power since his brother is the sultan and has several of the princes subordinates in his back pocket. The only hope the prince had for a shot at power (and staying alive) was to throw his lot in with the christian population. A very risky gamble, but in this senario the prince managed to pull it off.

I just have one question: how did that prince survive so long? (and how did he get to marry a Byzantine?)

My primary point is this: having kicked off all claims to authority and ruling*, how does the prince get anyone to follow him now that he's declared himself an enemy of the Ottomans?

(many Balkan rulers were actually on good terms with the Ottomans)

* = the Ottoman Emperors claimed it through Rome after the City fell, and both before and after then, they claimed it as the Mantle of the Prophet (via the Rightly-Guided Caliphs).
 
That's right folks, two Ottoman States exist. One state is a Christian empire consisting of all Ottoman possessions in Europe up to 1451 plus Byzantine lands and the other is a Muslim sultanate made up of all Ottoman territories in Asia Minor up to 1451. Both Ottoman states are roughly equal in power and fiercely hate each other. Warfare between both states breaks out every few years it seems, but nether side can force anything but a pre-war boarder when the dust settles. How did such a thing happen? It is a very interesting tale.

It is well known that before the Ottomans (Muslim branch) started locking up their princes so that the new sultan could have his brothers executed, the Ottomans would have the princes govern provinces with whoever could get to the capital the quickest after the previous sultan's death becoming the new sultan. It is from this practice that the Christian branch of the Ottoman dynasty arose. An Ottoman prince in a (relatively) far away Balkan province found out that his father had died and that his brother had proclaimed himself sultan. Knowing of his brother's hatred for him, this Ottoman prince carefully examined his situation. He had few troops and he knew that several of his lieutenants were in his brother's pocket.

Not wanting to die or be imprisoned, the prince pursued an unthinkable solution. He had the servants poison his questionably loyal troops, called the leaders of the city he was staying in, and then renounced Islam and requested to be baptized. The prince claimed to have received a visit from an angel that proclaimed to him the true of the Gospel and that it was his duty to free the followers of Christ from the yoke of his unbelieving brother. While many believe that the prince was just making up a story to win support, many in the Balkans believe that the prince was telling the truth. Whatever the case, the prince was able after seven long years to unite the various Balkan peoples under his banner and forced his brother to accept the newly formed Balkan Empire as an accomplished fact. The christian prince secured the christian branch of the Ottomans by marrying a Byzantine princess. His grandson would eventually come to inherit the remains of the Byzantine Empire.

So, what do you all think of this scenario with two radically different Ottoman states? Now before anyone calls ASBs on this, think for a moment. History is full of cases where people take a majorly risky gamble for power that most would wager wouldn't pay off and it works big time. Cyrus the Great, William the Conqueror, Genghis Khan (seriously, no one would have bet on him until he started looting China) to name a few. There are also plenty of cases of royalty and other power figures converting to a new religion or a religion that they previously opposed if they think that such a conversion will beneifit their power base. In this case, the Ottoman prince is S.O.L. in traditional Ottoman power since his brother is the sultan and has several of the princes subordinates in his back pocket. The only hope the prince had for a shot at power (and staying alive) was to throw his lot in with the christian population. A very risky gamble, but in this senario the prince managed to pull it off.

You're assuming that the population of the Ottoman Balkans was Christian which is not true. Even as early as 1451 there was a large Muslim and largely Turkic population upon which Ottoman power was built. You can't just poison a few troops and convert to Christianity; you'd destroy the basis of your power by murdering loyal Muslim soldiers and becoming a heathen.

The Muslims were in a minority, but they were also more numerous than any of the Christian ethnicities, and held strong control over the administrative apparatus, total control over the military, and largely dominated the economy. If a Sultan converted to Christianity, he would be immediately deposed and replaced.

Anatolia was not the core of Ottoman power; the Balkans were, and remained so until 1878.
 
You're assuming that the population of the Ottoman Balkans was Christian which is not true. Even as early as 1451 there was a large Muslim and largely Turkic population upon which Ottoman power was built. You can't just poison a few troops and convert to Christianity; you'd destroy the basis of your power by murdering loyal Muslim soldiers and becoming a heathen.

The Muslims were in a minority, but they were also more numerous than any of the Christian ethnicities, and held strong control over the administrative apparatus, total control over the military, and largely dominated the economy. If a Sultan converted to Christianity, he would be immediately deposed and replaced.

Anatolia was not the core of Ottoman power; the Balkans were, and remained so until 1878.

EDIT : Apparently I didn't read Pasha's post more thouroughly back then. Strong control over administration? Total control over the military ? Domination over the economy ? He's done for.
 
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If I'm a Christian Lord in the Balkans and this happens I seize the guy who has alienated his Muslim armies, then send a letter to the sultan saying "Sultan X+his Titles, I have Prince Y, give me 15,000 gold coins a year and I will keep him under lock and key forever. Give me 100,000 gold coins and he'll be in the City under your loving sword by the end of the year!"
 
I'm not sure about back in that day. But is probally kind of like today that he will no longer be considered Turkish if he converts. Even if he holds on to power he's going to have to assimilate to keep it. So like every other christian Turk, he is now Greek. And Long live the Roman Empire, Because thats what that would be. Unless its before the fall of Byzantium then his whole ambition will be to take Constantinople.
 
I'm not sure about back in that day. But is probally kind of like today that he will no longer be considered Turkish if he converts. Even if he holds on to power he's going to have to assimilate to keep it. So like every other christian Turk, he is now Greek. And Long live the Roman Empire, Because thats what that would be. Unless its before the fall of Byzantium then his whole ambition will be to take Constantinople.

If he were Orthodox Christian, he could just marry into the Byzantine dynasty and become Emperor that way. Unfortunately he would have been deposed and executed about five seconds after converting.
 
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