Ottoman Africa

Recently the Middle East has had a new phenomenon and that is a soap opera called "Hareem Al-Sultan," an Arabic-dubbed Turkish soap-opera who's Turkish name translates as "Magnificent Century."

It takes artistic license and glorifying (and slightly sexualising, for appeal:p) The politics and internal relations of the court of Sultan Suleiman the Lawgiver, or the Magnificent as he is known in the West.

I am deriving from the point of my first timeline thread.

It has got me thinking to the might of the Supreme State (which is what we generally called the period of the Ottomans.) A lot of its defeats and diplomatic mismanagements were at the hands of its attempted expansion into the Balkans and Europe, and only later claimed the Caliphate and only half-heartedly took advantage of lesser Muslim powers, states, and nations on its frontiers in extremely profitable regions.

Another influence for this thread came after reading a book on the Ottoman administration of the Arabian Gulf emirates, etc.

There existed a nominal claim to the Arabian Peninsula, be it however lightly enforced. However, how could greater cooperation for Khedeival Egypt and strengthening strong holds in Libya, the Sahahra, and further down into Sub-Saharan and Sahelian Africa have affected the Supreme State?

First of all I would propose such a State to consist of only core Turkish-speaking areas of the Balkans, and at an early stage focus on African and Asian expansion (perhaps into Indonesia?) around the time of European exploration.

Some ideas that I need help discussing and I think creative collaboration would help with:

1) Ottoman expulsion of the Portuguese from the Indian Ocean via Mameluke vassals/later subjects. Ironically, this first occurred during Sultan Suleiman's reign. This idea includes a much more capable, stronger Ottoman Navy.

2) Granada and the Moors in Spain.

3) Vassalage/Cooperation/Incorporation of the Maghreb including Morocco-proper.

4) Maintaining a strategic alliance with multiple European powers to maintain its strong hold in the Islamic Balkans (i.e. more than France or stronger.)

5) Vassalage of Ethiopia as another millet of the empire, and further developing relations with Somali and Yemeni sultanates and tribes. This would/could naturally lead to:

6) Vassalage/cooperation of and with Oman (at any given time) which, depending on the era, could lead to strengthening a hold on East Africa and Zanjbar specifically.

I have so many ideas that are all over the place but what I would like to focus on is an expansion of the Ottomans as deep as Uganda and the northern Congo area, with effective Islamisation, if not Ottoman administration of hinterlands in Africa, the Arabian Peninsula and the Indian Ocean, and less of a focus on what would be a more set-in-stone European border (which would have a serious constant threat of Russian designs on Constantiniya I am sure.)

Let's commence discussion :eek:
 
Welcome to the site!

On a certain level for any of these ideas to work you need to find a way to change the empire early on to get them focused on conquering their way south rather than their OTL drive to the west, either a stronger less divided Roman Empire capable of stopping the Ottomans at the Balkans or simply increasing the value of territories in the levant and Africa (which OTL where some of the poorest parts of the Empire).

On your ideas:

1. I dont really know much about that regions history so I probably should avoid commenting on it.
2. Unlikely, at that point in history Granada and the Muslim presence in Spain was effectively doomed and barely holding on by a thread. I wont say impossible but that idea would require a lot of thinking.
3. That one is a perfectly workable idea if the empire is foccusing more on the south. Although it should be noted at this time Morroco was called the Emirate of Fez.
4. This is also somewhat unlikely at this time, Muslim empires holding land in Europe immediately made an alliance between them rather difficult to maintain, although if the just kept to Anatolia with very little of the Balkans it could be possible.
5. Doable, although I suspect Ethiopia would be hard to hold onto given how capable they where OTL in resisting the Ottomans.
6. I dont even think conquering Ethiopia is necesary here, more direct interest in the Hejaz and Arabia in general could lead to this on its own. Oman could be an issue because of sectarian issues (Oman being Ibadi)

Now then I have a question, is there an English language subbed or dubbed version of this show available? Sounds pretty good and I would watch it.
 
A stronger "Byzantine" Empire will stop the Ottomans before they amount to anything. A stronger HRE - how will that influence events there?

Commenting on this part, as any changes to the Balkan/Anatolian situation effect my beloved Byzantines first.
 
It would be really hard to stop the Ottoman Sultans from going into Europe without killing the Ottoman Empire.

Yeah. Any POD where the Byzantines are strong enough to resist, the Ottomans aren't going to last.

And short of that, why wouldn't they go into Europe?

I suppose you could certainly see them end their expansion at some defensible position short of OTL, but by that point, they're definitely in Europe, nonetheless.
 
Yeah. Any POD where the Byzantines are strong enough to resist, the Ottomans aren't going to last.

And short of that, why wouldn't they go into Europe?

I suppose you could certainly see them end their expansion at some defensible position short of OTL, but by that point, they're definitely in Europe, nonetheless.
What if Bulgaria never falls to the Byzantines? There could then be a strong barrier to European expansion without harming the Ottoman territorial integrity too much.

EDIT: You know, that seems a dangerously early POD.
 
What if Bulgaria never falls to the Byzantines? There could then be a strong barrier to European expansion without harming the Ottoman territorial integrity too much.

EDIT: You know, that seems a dangerously early POD.

A POD that early butterflies away the Ottomans entirely.
 
Interesting developments in the ideas.

This site is in Arabic, but as long as you know numbers you can watch the entire series in (rather grammatically awkward, but the ideas get across) subtitled English.

I think the subtitles are poor because it is obvious from their translations that different subtitlists are at work writing. Arabic-speakers fluent in English will notice this immediately.

Also, the subtitles are from the Arabic, which is dubbed from Turkish.

Enjoyable none the less :D

http://www.mazikadrama.com/moslsl525/page2

As I said, follow the numbers for episodes and enjoy:eek:
 
As mentioned, a classical Ottoman state (centered on Constantinople/Istanbul) is inevitably going to be focused on Europe. The early Ottomans got their start from skillful use of the ghazi tradition, and while it's still possible to go after the infidels to the west, it's going to be hard to stop.

However here's an idea that I used in Age of Miracles. Take the Ottomans and move them. In AoM I moved them to Iraq, but for your purposes Egypt would be better. Have the Osmanlis flee Anatolia for some reason (say a resurgent Byzantium) and end up in Egypt, where they eventually seize power and turn the Mameluke Sultanate into the Ottoman Empire. With Egypt as their center and power base, they would be very well placed to expand in Africa, Arabia, and the Indian Ocean and wouldn't be distracted by European commitments.
 

Don Grey

Banned
To the OP:
Ottoman africa with out ottoman balkans and cacausus is impossible. You must keep in mind that the ottomans bread and butter was subjugation of christian and european peoples. Its implyed perpose was to conqoure as much of christindom as possible. Then you have to keep in mind that the ottomans were not a colonial power they had no cycle of extrating resources to feed to homecountry. As there was no home country. The only cycle that existed was the cycle of conquest investment and taxation. Getting into africa would be difficult if not foolish as logistics at the time made it hard along with lack of infratructer in the region and for very little gain. There was reletively no glory or loot involved in subgugating african tribes living in huts. Europe was where the money and glory was at. Even the conquest of the middles east was oppurtunistic.

The only way to achive your goal is not a smaller ottomans but a larger and stronger one.Keep in mind that the ottoman are centraly located they can be attacked from all sides and expand on all sides.And all ottoman conquests were thus balanced. First conquest of the balkans must be completed and gains consolidated. Only way to do that is if viena falls for good during the first seige if not earlery. Persia must be nocked out for good as keeping forces in the east to garrison again possible persian invasion was a serious recourse and manpower drain. During Selims time would be the best possible point as the persians are weak at this point and shiaism could be reversed. Then you must deal with the caucasus. Everything up to astrakhan along with crimia and central ukyrain must be taken to knock back russia or any eastern european state, then establish fortesses to make invastion costly.You also need to increase conversion rates in europe to deal with the cronic ottoman manpower problam.

Ottomans already controlled the eastern med and the western med was contested. To take the west malta must fall and a strong foot hold must taken in southern italy. Only then cant you expand int morroco and andelus which you will need to take, because only valuable part of africa at the time being western corst and eastern coast. After morroco and andelus fall naval bases could be established to carry troops across the western african to take the cost. Then from egypt you go south take sudan and ethiopia and take proper contol of yemen from there spring board to samolia.That sall you can do at this point as thats all logistic will alow.When technology catches up you may continue to expand during colonial era int0 africa with rail, as the ottomans had the iidea of the suez canal just didnt have the money for it. after the suez is open you can strenghting your navy to go to the likes of india and indonesia and the eastern cost of africa..

As you can see this is very difficult. The ottomans would need to do everything right for an ottoman africa.Its far easyer said then done.

It would be really hard to stop the Ottoman Sultans from going into Europe without killing the Ottoman Empire.

And this.
 
It would actually be easier to make it happen quite later like, say in the 1800s ? The now-banned member Abdul Hadi Pasha has this featuring in his TL "Shadow of God" by having Ottomans prevailing over Russians in 1878 instead of losing, enabling them to accept British invitation to restore order in Egypt at the eve of Mahdi crisis, taking over Egypt and her African Empire, and then expanding a bit from there, to Bunyoro and Ubangi southward and Bornu and Hoggar Mountain westward. That's a huge chunk of Africa geographic-wise, even if mostly dessert with no people.

Better yet however, is to have status-quo-ist conservatives and Janissaries overthrown decades earlier the OTL schedule and prevent the Khedivate from happening, transferring Egypt directly from Mamluks to Imperial direct control. But modern medicines would be a crucial pre-condition for expansion deep into the Sudans and beyond.
 
It would actually be easier to make it happen quite later like, say in the 1800s ? The now-banned member Abdul Hadi Pasha has this featuring in his TL "Shadow of God" by having Ottomans prevailing over Russians in 1878 instead of losing, enabling them to accept British invitation to restore order in Egypt at the eve of Mahdi crisis, taking over Egypt and her African Empire, and then expanding a bit from there, to Bunyoro and Ubangi southward and Bornu and Hoggar Mountain westward. That's a huge chunk of Africa geographic-wise, even if mostly dessert with no people.

Better yet however, is to have status-quo-ist conservatives and Janissaries overthrown decades earlier the OTL schedule and prevent the Khedivate from happening, transferring Egypt directly from Mamluks to Imperial direct control. But modern medicines would be a crucial pre-condition for expansion deep into the Sudans and beyond.

Can I get a link?
 
Maybe the 19th century is indeed a better time, or at least the late 18th...

I'd like to see an earlier modernization and Young Ottomans-esque movement begin centralizing and modernizing rail and communication lines in the Ottoman Empire (especially in more distant vassals like Tunis and Algeria, maybe, but definitely in Libya and the Fezzan and below) that begins to focus on internal centralization and improving international credit.

Perhaps with a religious revival that serves to unite the empire's Muslims under the Sultan's caliphate (probably will lead to independence of various Christian/European principalities) while the Muslims unite under their religion and begin missionary activity deeper into Africa, securing stronger Ottoman claims and presence in resource-heavy sub-Saharan Africa, i.e. past South Sudan into the Congo, perhaps allying stronger/more equally with the British and Oman-Zanjbar. I am imagining an Ottoman presence in sub-Saharan Africa more known by New Imperialism era.

Perhaps Mohammed Ali is ignored more by the British (can we imagine them having a harder time in India? Possibly...) and encouraged to become an Reformist/Saviour figure, conquering Anatolia and enshrining the Sultan as a more figure-head and religious figure while modernizing the entire Sublime State as he did to only Egypt in real life...

Abolishment of African slavery at an earlier period allows for a strong alliance with the U.K. and prevents many of the "To save Africans from Arab slavers" rhetoric that was all too common for European involvement in eastern and sub-Saharan Africa.
 
^ Osman II was killed because it was feared he was going to recruit an essentially Turkish conscript army when he went on a pilgrimage. No evidence he was actually going to do that, but what if events had fallen out so a Sultan did try this around that time and was successful?

That might allow you to prime things for an early modernization later on.
 
Top