Alright, which was the best class of 16" armed interwar battleships?
edit: two rounds, 1) as built and 2) as of final upgrade
edit: two rounds, 1) as built and 2) as of final upgrade
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OTL question: Nelson vs Nagato vs Colorado
- Thread starter SealTheRealDeal
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- battleship otl question
1. Nelson-best armor, guns are ok
2. Colorado-not as good armor, best guns
3. Nagato-guns are good, but too much armor sacrificed for 26 knots
Does it have to be USS Colorado or can it be a member of her class because the best the whole bunch would be USS West Virginia post PH rebuild.
Best for what?
I would generally agree with the above but think early on Nelson would win (but its relatively close like most BB v BB battles would actually be) post her mounts being properly working and extra gun over Colorado and better protection assuming Nagato dost win by running to the finish first?
Cryhavoc101
Donor
'When' makes a bit of a difference as all 3 ships were refitted throughout their lives - Nagato receiving a comprehensive rebuild from 1930 that changed quite a bit including her turrets.
Nelson is best of the 3 and the most modern design - but there was issues with the turret machinery right into the 30s but the shells would have been the most effective in terms of reliability - her armour is superior in virtually every respect to the other 2 - particularly her main belt and deck and her max speed falls between them at 23 knots
Nagato is the fastest (26.5 and later 25 knots after her rebuild) but least protected by a significant margin - there is some issues with the Japanese fixation on torpedo shells (shells designed to drop shot and then hit the enemy ship under the main belt) - this made them much less effective in a direct hit than would otherwise be the case.
Colorado - is the slowest (21 knots) and while the main belt is superior to the Nagato the deck is about the same Turrets are much better protected. While the guns are good the USN had issues with the fuses on their main gun shells being degraded by the chemical used as the Explosive filler corrding the fuses during storage making them unreliable in the first year or so of combat. This was resolved by 43.
I'm going to give it to Nelson, Colorado gets into 2nd place on her protection with Nagato 3rd due to her much poorer protection but can disengage due to her slightly superior speed if not degraded quickly enough.
Nelson is best of the 3 and the most modern design - but there was issues with the turret machinery right into the 30s but the shells would have been the most effective in terms of reliability - her armour is superior in virtually every respect to the other 2 - particularly her main belt and deck and her max speed falls between them at 23 knots
Nagato is the fastest (26.5 and later 25 knots after her rebuild) but least protected by a significant margin - there is some issues with the Japanese fixation on torpedo shells (shells designed to drop shot and then hit the enemy ship under the main belt) - this made them much less effective in a direct hit than would otherwise be the case.
Colorado - is the slowest (21 knots) and while the main belt is superior to the Nagato the deck is about the same Turrets are much better protected. While the guns are good the USN had issues with the fuses on their main gun shells being degraded by the chemical used as the Explosive filler corrding the fuses during storage making them unreliable in the first year or so of combat. This was resolved by 43.
I'm going to give it to Nelson, Colorado gets into 2nd place on her protection with Nagato 3rd due to her much poorer protection but can disengage due to her slightly superior speed if not degraded quickly enough.
Hm, good point. How about two rounds:
1) as built
2) as of final refit
The big gun set piece battle.
For once the Japanese fixation on torpedo shells might pay off since the Nelsons had a very thick belt but it wasn't that high which in theory would make them vulnerable to torpedo shells(the RN planned on extending the belt(albeit a thinner section) downward to fix this when they rebuilt the Nelsons but WWII happened first)
...At night
...Nagato at dawn after the US Fleet has bumbled through the night of IJN night attack groups and discovering the Type 93 torpedo for the first time.
The Colorados and Nelsons were the last of the Super Dreadnoughts, Nagato was the first of the next generation Fast Battleships. Nagato would be silly to engage either RN or USN ship without using her speed advantage. If she is in a straight up line vs line fight then she has lost, if she has used her speed to cross the T of her opponents then 8 guns vs 4 for Colorado or 6 for Nelson could be decisive. The US plan to counter this was to let the opponent fast wing deploy to the van and then the US battleline turns about 180 degrees and engages on the opposite course. Not really a way to win a fleet engagement but the best way to get out of a trap.
In the 20's the US fleet suffered from questionable quality shells and low elevation guns that meant the RN and IJN could engage them while 2/3 of the US fleet couldn't get in the fight.
It's very difficult to cross the T on a one vs one fight at long range. All Nelson has to do is change course enough to unmask the rear turret.
The main advantage Nagato gets from her speed is the possibility of refusing to fight.
I'm going to zig against the consensus a little and pick Colorado over Nelson as built. Given a choice between unreliable shells and unreliable mounts I'll take the shells any day, because even a dud shell is going to break things when it hits. Further, while Nelson has thicker armor the coverage is IMO suspect. Their belt is only 13 feet high to the 17 feet of the Colorados and a great deal shorter, which means less armored waterline and less armored freeboard, which means no proper raft body, which means greater vulnerability to progressive flooding at the unarmored ends. AP shells won't be detonating there, but they will be punching holes.
Also, I'd be very nervous about the 6" secondary mounts, which were not only very lightly armored, but had to deal with more volatile propellant, no main belt coverage, and their very tight placement.
Nagato's speed is nice but she'd be saddled with the 23-knot Fuso and Ise classes, which means her thin armor is a problem.
The best final configuration is, of course, West Virginia.
Also, that American battle line turn was a way to win a fleet engagement, because the US Navy had good predictive fire control and the Japanese did not. As such, a turn would throw off a Japanese firing solution but allow the Americans to keep shooting accurately.
I'd also submit that the low-elevation guns of the early Standards were not as big a handicap against the Royal Navy as is often claimed to be. The 14"/45 and 15"/42 had basically the same maximum range. It was more of a problem against the Japanese, of course, hence the turret elevation upgrade.
Also, I'd be very nervous about the 6" secondary mounts, which were not only very lightly armored, but had to deal with more volatile propellant, no main belt coverage, and their very tight placement.
Nagato's speed is nice but she'd be saddled with the 23-knot Fuso and Ise classes, which means her thin armor is a problem.
The best final configuration is, of course, West Virginia.
For a "next generation" ship Nagato sure had a good number of retrograde features like her incremental armor scheme and mixed-firing boilers. And this whole "fast wing" business was not how the Japanese intended to employ them anyway. Nelson has a much better claim on being a "next generation" design.
Also, that American battle line turn was a way to win a fleet engagement, because the US Navy had good predictive fire control and the Japanese did not. As such, a turn would throw off a Japanese firing solution but allow the Americans to keep shooting accurately.
I'd also submit that the low-elevation guns of the early Standards were not as big a handicap against the Royal Navy as is often claimed to be. The 14"/45 and 15"/42 had basically the same maximum range. It was more of a problem against the Japanese, of course, hence the turret elevation upgrade.
Almost insane what was invested in rebuilding WeeVee, given how badly she was damaged and the limited utility of a slow battlship by that point. This is what happens when you have nearly limitless naval construction resources.
Basically it was almost a new ship. The only thing lacking was speed...but given the hull size, that was just one thing they couldn't squeeze into it.
I guess I was assuming that the original question was about a hypothetical interwar battle, rather than one during WW2, but myabe the author had something else in mind.
West Virginia, Tennessee, and California got the most extensive modernizations. Nevada and Pennsylvania were the next tier, Maryland and Idaho after that (Idaho was the only one to get single 5" mounts like the Fletchers got), and then New Mexico, Mississippi, and Colorado got the least amount of attention. The below picture of USS Tennessee post refit is the best example of just how much of a new ship she was:
Yeah, basically, WeeVee and the Tennessees ended up looking like South Dakotas. Well, smallish South Dakotas. Maybe they fooled some Japanese scouts.
WeeVee had almost the same AAA suite, so those scouts had better hope on clouds nearby