OTL Cities which could have been great?

[Arkenfolm]

Maybe Hangzhou? Situated in China's 4th richest province, and within the wealthy Jiangnan region, it has great potential due to its geographical position. However, as of now, it is eclipsed economically by Shanghai, a much younger city (people of the region even call Shanghai Benbang--roughly translating to "centerpiece city"). This is a far cry from Hangzhou's status of China's largest city during the Southern Song Dynasty, and that is very impressive when you note that the Song comprised of 80% of the world's GDP in its heyday. Later on, Hangzhou was eclipsed politically by Nanjing in the early Ming Dynasty, during which Nanjing served for a time as China's capital, and was of course overtaken by Shanghai during the Qing Dynasty.

As of now however, Hangzhou still has one asset--tourism. It is also one of China's most modern, automated cities and has absolutely beautiful scenery. If China was to be more Southern-oriented than OTL, and also historically focused more on the economy, Hangzhou could very likely have remained China's number 1 city to this very day.

Didn't the port of Hangzhou silt up in the early modern period, hence why the city was eclipsed?

Could Anchorage, or some other city in Alaska, be larger if the territory is connected with one of the other larger polities on the continent? Either being part of Canada, or the Yukon and British Columbia being part of the US, giving a direct route to Alaska.

Also, on the topic of Cairo, Illinois, I can't help but wonder if you could have moved that potential hub eastward, to Metropolis, Illinois, such that Superman may gallivant about in a real city.

I think if the Japanese colonised Alaska (either Russia sells directly to them, or sells it to Spain or someone who sells it to Japan, might take even more of a Japan wank than the late 19th century had), you'd have at least one city the size of Anchorage and possibly sizably bigger. I believe Anchorage is in one of the best regions of Alaska for agriculture and thus easier to colonise. Maybe also a communist US might move a lot of people to Alaska, out of paranoia of Russians/British/whoever trying to take it, putting labour camps there, and in general to exploit its massive mineral resources of which thanks to environmentalism the United States would never exploit (of course, it's a good thing we don't have places in this country like Norilsk where pollution is so bad you can economically mine the soil). In either case, I could see the population of Alaska in its current borders reach twice as much by the present day. If you had an early POD (Heian era) that leads to Japanese colonisation of the West Coast (once they're done with the Sea of Okhotsk region), maybe even as high as 3-4 times as much in the present day.

But how would Metropolis compete with Paducah on the other side of the river? I guess aside from the fact that it has gambling and all, but wasn't that relatively recent that Illinois legalised gambling?

 

[NamelesStatistic]

Chicago, or Detroit. There was a time when both these cities were really among the greatest on Earth. Detroit in particular at one point was widely hailed for its wealth and growth. Now... not so much.

 

[IndefatigableRN]

Chicago, or Detroit. There was a time when both these cities were really among the greatest on Earth. Detroit in particular at one point was widely hailed for its wealth and growth. Now... not so much.

It's undergoing massive resurgence.. at least that is my understanding... I admit I haven't been back in a while though.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Adding to the discussion on Alaska, what about Knik, Palmer, and/or Wasilla? They're on another inlet north of Anchorage, and have better access to the interior of Alaska. It's been proposed to move the capital of Alaska to Wasilla or a nearby town, and Knik at one point was as important as Anchorage. I think the geography of Alaska dictates that the Matanuska-Susitna Valley will be the most important region of the state, given that it has easy access to the sea yet is fairly sheltered and has a good climate for the region thus would be a natural site for colonisation.

Maybe also a site along the Yukon River? What would be a good site near the mouth of the river for an equivalent for New Orleans along the Yukon? And would be good inland river ports in Alaska? Certainly a more populated Alaska could have a few equivalents of Whitehorse in the Yukon Territory. Maybe more agricultural areas like the Tanana Valley near Fairbanks and thus areas which could have a regional center of a few thousand people at least. I wonder if you could also do something with the Valdez-Cordova Census Area, but it's kind of remote given the various mountains in the way (although is the Copper River easily navigable?) and thus would be difficult for farming to be of any profit. It does have nice reserves of coal, oil, and copper though.

 

[Deleted member 6086]

The best chance for Anchorage to grow is it to become a major resupply port en route from the West Coast to Asia, as IIRC it is on the shortest great circle route between many places in the north Pacific. The problem is that Hawaii is already there and a better option climatically and logistically despite the longer distance closer to the Equator. So we have to remove Hawaii from the picture as an option somehow. My first idea was an isolationist native Hawaiian monarchy refusing access to foreign ships, but to be honest the islands were probably too small and strategically important to stay independent, especially with them having been devastated by disease shortly after their unification.

An alternative is them coming under Japanese rather than American rule - in OTL starting in the '20s the Japanese were very protective of their Pacific mandates, even refusing foreigners and foreign merchant ships any access whatsoever. Have this start earlier and be extended to Hawaii, with Tokyo seeing its exclusive use of the archipelago as best for its national security. In consequence Anchorage becomes the main resupply port for ships sailing from the West Coast to East Asia and back.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Baghdad, Tabriz and Rayy could be plausible alternate capitals for Persia/Iran with all that this implies.

In 1450, the three largest Islamic cities were Cairo, Tabriz, and Grenada; if the Ottoman Empire's rise had been cut short in the early 15th Century, then not only would Tabriz remain Persoa's capital, but Persia itself could be fairly wanked compared with OTL. And if Grenada still falls to the Reconquista, then it and Cairo will effectively be the two "capitals" of global islam for the foreseeable future.

 

[The Undead Martyr]

In 1450, the three largest Islamic cities were Cairo, Tabriz, and Grenada; if the Ottoman Empire's rise had been cut short in the early 15th Century, then not only would Tabriz remain Persoa's capital, but Persia itself could be fairly wanked compared with OTL. And if Grenada still falls to the Reconquista, then it and Cairo will effectively be the two "capitals" of global islam for the foreseeable future.

Oh indeed, I in fact wanked them under the Akk Qoyunlu in my own timeline under just such circumstances.

 

[Indicus]

Chandernagore could have been great if India was French. Chandernagore, a city extremely close to Calcutta, was a major port city until it was destroyed by British invaders during the Seven Years War, and though it was rebuilt and returned to the French, it never recovered in terms of trade. If during the Seven Years War, the Nawab of Bengal kicked out the British, Calcutta rather than Chandernagore would be the city in decline, and even if France is unable to take all of Bengal, Chandernagore is going to, at least, be a major port city a la Hong Kong.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Oh indeed, in fact I wanked them under the Akk Qoyunlu in my own timeline...

Christ, you weren't kidding...

 

[The Undead Martyr]

Christ, you weren't kidding...

Well, the neo-Sassanid empire didn't last more than a decade or two, but the Persia-wank was a pretty inevitable consequence of the early destruction of the Ottomans and the ruin made of the Mamluks- since the Ottoman/Turkish refugees were able to reverse the result of an OTL battle, with Qara Uthman surviving and killing Jahan Shah in his stead, thus allowing them to consolidate all of eastern Anatolia and western Iran in time for Uzun Hassan (who in OTL put an end to two decades of Akk Qoyunlu civil war, defeated the Kara Koyunlu, and conquered basically all of the future Safavid Empire) to inherit and finish the job.

OTL's history is quite the Persia-Screw after the Seljuks. First the Mongols come in and wreck the place, then just as the Ilkhanate is starting to get its act together it disintegrates, then freaking Tamerlane comes in to raze what's left, then the Safavids have to deal with the 16th century Ottomans, and by the time the Ottomans aren't really a problem any more Russia is expanding into the Caucasus...

 

[Roger II]

Chicago is still a huge city, I think one of the biggest in the US and with a large number of major industries(well sectors); it and Pittsburgh are probably the best examples of a postindustrial city doing well. Point taken on Detroit.

 

[BlondieBC]

What's so special about it? Seems like any city atop Crowley's Ridge would be good. Especially Helena, Arkansas, on the very south end of the ridge. It's at the confluence of the St. Francis (which is navigable a decent ways inland) and Mississippi. It's a decent bit away from Memphis though, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of options if you want a Memphis (probably a bit smaller)-sized city on the western bank of the Mississippi (or nearby).

There is not. The area west of the Mississippi is just a large, but fertile swamp. Memphis is the natural location for the city. If you want to come up the Arkansas or White Rivers, Little Rock is the logical next best location. They were still fighting malaria in these swamps in the 1920's. Crowley Ridge is a good location for a regional city to support the farmland in the swamps, not for a large city.

 

[BlondieBC]

I'll add a few.

In 1850s, the U.S. Government conducted a series of land surveys in order to find the best route for a Trans-Continental railway to the Pacific, and ultimately found the southern most proposed line was the best. The Gadsden Purchase was done in order to secure the territory needed to build it, but then the increasing sectional disputes between the North and the South killed it the project until the 1870s. Even then, the Central Pacific monopoly managed to screw it over. Had it been built, as was originally intended, it would've roughly followed the route of what IOTL became the Butterfield Overland Trail:

The main difference would be, instead of connecting up towards San Francisco, it would've directly terminated in San Diego (Another spur would, most likely, later connect it to San Francisco). Such an advantageous position, in terms of being an excellent port and a terminus for the first Trans-Continental Railroad would've turned San Diego into the premier city and port on the West Coast. As was noted IOTL by the opponents of the 1870s effort:

This route would make Fort Smith a huge city. The largest for hundreds of miles in any direction. You would have three railroads meeting plus barge traffic from the Arkansas River. I would guess a city of 3-5 million since it will short circuit Tulsa. And I would guess Kansas City would be much smaller than OTL. And kind of looks like Dallas would be smaller too since the first RR will bypass Dallas.

 

[BlondieBC]

Antioch was still the most important city in Syria all the way until after WW1. Damascus was an administrative center and little more as far as the Ottomans were concerned.

And on that note, Beirut. For reasons that I hope are obvious.

Aleppo was the important city in 1913. It was the second largest City in the Ottoman Empire. It linked both to south to Palestine, but it had trading twin to the east, Mosul.

 

[NOLAWildcat]

New Orleans, Louisiana:

At the mouth of said river and one of the US's major ports still today. It too has declined significantly in its population, like St Louis did. People used to speak of New Orleans as being destined to be a mega city as well. Saint Louis and New Orleans actually have a lot in common. Both were once thought to be future global cities, both declined and lost population instead.

New Orleans area native here. While it's true that New Orleans' rise was hit hard by the Civil War and its aftermath (it was the US's 4th largest city for much of the 19th Century), its geography is just not conducive to being a megacity despite it being an excellent port.

The French essentially placed their settlement on the first patch of high ground they could find going upriver from the mouth of the Mississippi. While the original heart of the city (the French Quarter) is built on the natural river levee, most of the rest of the inner metro area is at or below sea level as it has been reclaimed swamp land that has been drained parcel by parcel over the last 200 years and has since settled several feet. Hence the extensive network of canals and levees. The immediate urbanized area is essentially an island with swamp on to the West and south, Lake Ponchartrain to the north, and Lake Borgne and the Gulf to the East. This made railroads and later highways to the area harder to construct and spurred the growth of Houston and other competitors. Plus the massive sprawl seen in Houston, Atlanta, and Dallas would be hard to duplicate given the nearest areas suitable for that type of development without massive swamp reclamation projects are on the Northshore of Lake Ponchartrain at other end of either a 24 mile bridge over open water or 10 miles of swampy wildlife refuge followed by another 5 mile bridge over open water.

Had the French built their settlement further upriver towards Donaldsonville or Baton Rouge, the resulting metro area would have more room to grow and might be larger than the 2+ million than the combined populations of Metro New Orleans and Baton Rouge, but it'd be an additional 70-100 miles farther from the Gulf and even more vulnerable to losing business to cities like Houston or Mobile with shorter Gulf access once railroads came into their own. As it was Louisiana built the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (Mr. Go to the locals) in the 60's to better compete with Houston. It ultimately became a white elephant with little traffic and served as a conduit for storm surge that virtually wiped out New Orleans' eastern suburbs during Hurricane Katrina. I love my hometown, but it would never end up being a top ten American city size-wise given development patterns OTL.

 

[History Learner]

This route would make Fort Smith a huge city. The largest for hundreds of miles in any direction. You would have three railroads meeting plus barge traffic from the Arkansas River. I would guess a city of 3-5 million since it will short circuit Tulsa. And I would guess Kansas City would be much smaller than OTL. And kind of looks like Dallas would be smaller too since the first RR will bypass Dallas.

Did some research, and found out the Overland Stage Coach Route, which is depicted in that map, used elements from both of the two proposed Southern routes:

The Fort Smith to Los Angeles route basically would've followed a line somewhat similar to that used by Interstate 40 today. Given how railroad connections were shaping up in the South prior to the outbreak of the Civil War, Memphis would still end up its eastern terminus:

On the subject of the San Diego line, its route would branch out from Vicksburg on the work already done into Louisana, which would be expanded into Texas and thereafter follow the Stage Coach line until it terminated in San Diego.

 

[Agatho]

As I had mentioned in the alternate capitals thread, Gondar could have become much larger had the circumstances of Ethiopian centralization been different.

Cahokia certainly could have been larger in a situation with delayed contact with the Old World (or earlier contact that allowed for resistance to diseases to build up and animals like horses to be introduced earlier).

Qusqu could have been a lot larger in a surviving Tawantinsuyu.

In a TL where Mexico holds on to its possessions north of the Rio Bravo cities like Santa Fe could rise to more prominence as capitals of larger territories the government would have an interest in holding on to.

 

[BlondieBC]

Did some research, and found out the Overland Stage Coach Route, which is depicted in that map, used elements from both of the two proposed Southern routes:

The Fort Smith to Los Angeles route basically would've followed a line somewhat similar to that used by Interstate 40 today. Given how railroad connections were shaping up in the South prior to the outbreak of the Civil War, Memphis would still end up its eastern terminus:

On the subject of the San Diego line, its route would branch out from Vicksburg on the work already done into Louisana, which would be expanded into Texas and thereafter follow the Stage Coach line until it terminated in San Diego.

It is following closer to Interstate 30, at least once it is deep in Texas. I-30 goes to El Paso, like the proposed Railroad. I-40 goes a more northern route, once it is in western Texas. So I guess the good analogy is the I-40/I-30 combo interstates. Cities on the portion that will not be built will decline. So OKC and Albuquerque would be lesser cities. El Paso looks like a big winner. It is the point for the main border crossing to Mexico.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

After ww2 when most of Warsaw was sea of rubble, Łódź served as temporary capital of Poland and there was possibility that capital would move there for good. Communist Polish government could decide that rebuilding of Warsaw is too costful when Łódź was far less devasted, was located in the center of Poland in new borders and had fame of "worker's city".

 

[Arkenfolm]

There is not. The area west of the Mississippi is just a large, but fertile swamp. Memphis is the natural location for the city. If you want to come up the Arkansas or White Rivers, Little Rock is the logical next best location. They were still fighting malaria in these swamps in the 1920's. Crowley Ridge is a good location for a regional city to support the farmland in the swamps, not for a large city.

Even in the case of the Mississippi being the border between two nations, as I mentioned in a post a little bit further back? If the Mississippi is the border, then it would be logical some city emerges on the other side of the river, or perhaps a bit further back. Although perhaps instead you'd have a larger West Memphis, and then Helena or Jonesboro or another city on Crowley's Ridge would be a much larger than OTL regional city (maybe 150K-200K or more), and then you'd have something in either Little Rock or Pine Bluff along the Arkansas River? The site of Pine Bluff is closer to the Mississippi, so maybe you have Helena being a sizable city and Pine Bluff perhaps being around the size of OTL Memphis or maybe a bit smaller? I think this nation west of the Mississippi would build something along the lines of the McClellan-Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System to further enhance the usefulness of the Arkansas River.