Other Religions for Russia?

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well while I do agree that crusaders were no better than mongols, mongol were quite remrkable badasses themselves. You know I used to have done some archeology in Russia. And there are numerous towns that last cultural layer is XIII century. So you can't say that mongols were giving candies to children and did nothing more.
That was the initial invasion. Obviously that was fucking awful and saw vast destruction. But the so-called "Mongol Yoke" is largely the construction of frustrated churchmen who couldn't stand being ruled (however distantly) by infidels. After the initial invasion, Russians went back to paying Russian tax collectors who worked for Russian princes who gave a share to the Russian Grand Prince (who got both his title and all-important tax-collecting authority from the Khan), who finally accompanied the Khan's share on a tributary mission.
And while the thing you are telling us about Golden Hord is true if we speak about Mongol Empire and even about Ulus Jochi it is not true about Golden Horde itself which main spere of interests was Eastern Europe in general and Russia in particularly.
Historically, the rulers of the Golden Horde were more concerned with matters involving the steppe, Iran, and Central Asia than they were with day-to-day business in Russia, whose governance they left to their pet princes. The whole Danilovichi-Yaroslavichi drama is played out against the backdrop of Khan Uzbeg trying to get his damn money from these clowns to pay for his wars against the Il-Khans.
 
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MSZ

Banned
At that point orthodoxy was a bit to ossified in the peoples minds and traditions, any kind of crusade against them is going to lead to the same issues that the 4th crusade ran into, they just arent going to want to convert and any forced conversion wont stick well. They can't kill them because even then killing fellow christians for slight differences in doctrine is just unacceptable in the long run. By then its just too late and orthodoxy is an ingrained tradition with many aspects they would be woe to get rid of (Married priests, sermons being held in the language most of them spoke, and general things about how it was run where ingrained parts of Russian culture).

Three centuries isn't really that much for something to be an ingrained part of culture - at this point what we call Russian culture was only forming. I get all the problems associated with "forcefull change of religion" but a) it did happen and worked (like in Germany after the reformation, where a change in religion took place after more than three centuries of christiandom Russia had) b) it doesn't have to be forceful - maybe some knaz can ally with the "crusaders" hoping he can free himself of th tatar tax burden and convert to catholicism, or the mere presence of catholic knights in say, Kiev making the people there more willing to try out catholicism instead of orthodoxy. Or such crusades causing a reesablishment of trade relations with western europe, opening the ukrainian unpopulated steppes for ostsiedlung. Or it can be gradual process, such as some monks/priests preserving Orthodox liturgy, but accepting the suzerainty of the Pope. Plenty of other ways.
 
That was the initial invasion. Obviously that was fucking awful and saw vast destruction. But the so-called "Mongol Yoke" is largely the construction of frustrated churchmen. After the initial invasion, Russians went back to paying Russian tax collectors who worked for Russian princes who gave a share to the Russian Grand Prince (who got both his title and all-important tax-collecting authority) from the Khan, who finally got his share during a tributary mission.
Historically, the rulers of the Golden Horde were more concerned with matters involving Iran, Central Asia, and the steppe than they were with day-to-day business in Russia, whose governance they left to their pet princes.
It was actually the church that got most priviliges under Mongol rule. So it is difficult to say about disgrunted churchmen. And is anybody talking about the horrors of Mongols rule? Traditional Russian history doesn't.

Well since Uzbeg at last main focus of Golden Horde was definitely Europe( while he made some traditional fighting with Hulagids for Arran and Azerbajdzhan he spent far mor time campaining in Europe).

Well there were baskaks that have collected tribute( but that ended with Ivan Kalita doing it himself).

I suppose we misunderstood each other. Because for me it is more natural to call the stat before Uzbeg "Ulus Jochi" and after him "Golden Horde".
 
@ Wolfpaw:

Not that I'm arguing, as what I little know of Mongol rule over Russia supports your point, but what do you think the effect of Mongol rule was?

It's not as if the Mongols collecting taxes and troops and imposing their authority as they did (authority as in "rebel and beg for death") could be without any consequences, even if the idea it was a dark age of oriental despotism is rot.

http://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/classes/mongolimpact2.html
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
@ Wolfpaw:

Not that I'm arguing, as what I little know of Mongol rule over Russia supports your point, but what do you think the effect of Mongol rule was?
Frankly, it was rather distant. They only really "governed" the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which was largely devoid of peasantry. It was really safe for merchants, and the Mongols didn't really care if you were a Tengriist or a Buddhist or Christian or a Muslim. Trade thrived, especially along the Volga, which was the real heart of their empire. Again, we've got Rus' peasants dealing with Rus' tax collectors and sitting in Rus' churches in Rus' villages speaking some Rus' dialect. Mongols played little to no part in their life unless they were merchants or disgruntled monks looking for something to rail about.

It's not as if the Mongols collecting taxes and troops and imposing their authority as they did (authority as in "rebel and beg for death") could be without any consequences, even if the idea it was a dark age of oriental despotism is rot.
The Mongols demanded tribute from the Rus' princes and delegated all of the dirty work to said Rus' princes and their Rus' agents.

If there was a revolt, Horde troops were a last-case scenario. The Khans expected the Rus' princes to deal with shit like that, and they did. The Mongols' sole role in Rus' politics was kingmaker; they picked the grand prince who was responsible for all of the taxes in Rus' so that the Khans could focus on affairs in the steppe, Iran, and Central Asia.
 
Frankly, it was rather distant. They only really "governed" the Pontic-Caspian steppe, which was largely devoid of peasantry. It was really safe for merchants, and the Mongols didn't really care if you were a Tengriist or a Buddhist or Christian or a Muslim. Trade thrived, especially along the Volga, which was the real heart of their empire. Again, we've got Rus' peasants dealing with Rus' tax collectors and sitting in Rus' churches in Rus' villages speaking some Rus' dialect. Mongols played little to no part in their life unless they were merchants or disgruntled monks looking for something to rail about.

Oh sure. But the Mongols are still ultimately in charge - they may not be meddling day to day, but they're certainly not rulers in name only.

The Mongols demanded tribute from the Rus' princes and delegated all of the dirty work to said Rus' princes and their Rus' agents.

If there was a revolt, Horde troops were a last-case scenario. The Khans expected the Rus' princes to deal with shit like that, and they did. The Mongols' sole role in Rus' politics was kingmaker; they picked the grand prince who was responsible for all of the taxes in Rus' so that the Khans could focus on affairs in the steppe, Iran, and Central Asia.
But imposing that is certainly something that would encourage some things and discourage others - if nothing else, those who can gather the most taxes (however they do it) are going to be favored, with that encouraging princes knowing that they have the Khan at their back (so long as he sees them as useful, yes) pushing things. Meanwhile, disobeying the prince that the khan favors is going to potentially have some really nasty consequences.

But that's more a consequence of princes getting away with exploitation than Mongol exploitation per se.

As I recall, Moneybags was called that for being good at collecting Mongol tribute and having enough left over to be filthy rich, for instance.
 
The lasting hatred between Khazars, Bulgars and Rus' is transmitted by written sources that, guess what, were basically written down by Christian monks after conversion.
I would not say that it was not there before, but there is logical ground to think it was overstated by presumably biased sources.
I think that at the time of Vladimir, picking the faith of the neighbouring powerful occasional enemy that could occasionaly turn into a partner could be a sensible choice. Except that the Khazars were quite broke by 988.
It's more they were weak than they were hated though undoubtedly not the best buddies.
Bulgars were of less concern. Farther away, not particularly friendly, potential competitors for important trade routes... but more important, they were awfully far away from the centres of Islam.
They lacked proper marks of high-end Islamic culture. Connection with Baghdad was a nightmare. For Kiev, connecting with Islamic centres through them was an even worse nightmare, tough we know that some degree of contact existed.
Vladimir had obviously little desire to be the farthest periphery on the wrong end of the remotest backwater.
Not to mention that adopting Islam would have meant at least official abandoning of pork and alcohol, both noticeable parts of Rus economy and customs.
 
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