Other German Unification?

[da Racontor]

After the Frankfurt Parliament there was a proposal to create a German Empire with Fredrich Wilhelm IV as emperor, this failed because he refused the crown. Later Prussia proposed the Erfurt Union, this failed after Prussia suffered a diplomatic humiliation. Finally, after the Franco-Prussian War Germany unified into a single state.

Does anyone know of any other proposed ideas to unify German? or where there variations on these ideas that could have been used instead?

 

[DocJamore]

There were plenty of Germans that would have been willing to have had a Hapsburg Emperor so long as they were willing to let go of her non-German lands, which were basically any borders that were outside of the German Confederation. Of course, Austria was not willing to consider the proposal and people knew that, so many turned to the King of Prussia to create a German state that explicitly excluded Austria. Kleindeutschland.

I have seem people bring up timelines where the Austrian Empire falls apart starting with Hungarian provinces becoming independent. Not as many realize they are on their way to creating a Großdeutschland covering the entire German Confederation as it was. Such a state would radically change the geopolitics of Europe.

 

[da Racontor]

There were plenty of Germans that would have been willing to have had a Hapsburg Emperor so long as they were willing to let go of her non-German lands, which were basically any borders that were outside of the German Confederation. Of course, Austria was not willing to consider the proposal and people knew that, so many turned to the King of Prussia to create a German state that explicitly excluded Austria. Kleindeutschland.

I have seem people bring up timelines where the Austrian Empire falls apart starting with Hungarian provinces becoming independent. Not as many realize they are on their way to creating a Großdeutschland covering the entire German Confederation as it was. Such a state would radically change the geopolitics of Europe.

ya there was the idea for Großdeutshland, but were there ever any actual proposals about how such a country would function, that was put on paper anyway?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

ya there was the idea for Großdeutshland, but were there ever any actual proposals about how such a country would function, that was put on paper anyway?

The roughly 30-years war period HRE Reichstag provides a useful base model for a "Conservative Empire" (Or, perhaps, dealing with an expanded franchise if you're willing to jury-rig the allocation of votes to collective chairs, like minor nobility used to get.)

 

[GauchoBadger]

Perhaps if the Prussians had timed their announcement of the conservative Erfurt Union better, they could have succeeded. If they make such move concurrently with the Crimean War, they may be given support by France and Britain.

 

[Nivek]

There were plenty of Germans that would have been willing to have had a Hapsburg Emperor so long as they were willing to let go of her non-German lands, which were basically any borders that were outside of the German Confederation. Of course, Austria was not willing to consider the proposal and people knew that, so many turned to the King of Prussia to create a German state that explicitly excluded Austria. Kleindeutschland.

I have seem people bring up timelines where the Austrian Empire falls apart starting with Hungarian provinces becoming independent. Not as many realize they are on their way to creating a Großdeutschland covering the entire German Confederation as it was. Such a state would radically change the geopolitics of Europe.

ya there was the idea for Großdeutshland, but were there ever any actual proposals about how such a country would function, that was put on paper anyway?

The issue where like two Großdeutshland Ideas, one a Großdeutshland and a GroßOsterreich the former was what frankfurt wanted and the later what the hasburgs wanted, @Jared pulled an alternate german unification with a netherlands who was part of the german confederation even.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Perhaps if the Prussians had timed their announcement of the conservative Erfurt Union better, they could have succeeded. If they make such move concurrently with the Crimean War, they may be given support by France and Britain.

... by the time the Crimean Crisis would be playing out the window for Erfurt would be long dead, with the Frankfurters having seen the Liberal Revolutions elsewhere fizzle out and the Habsburg armies having had time to come in and support the local conservative nobility (quite possibly with Russian support), removing any need for a compromise.

 

[Petike]

After the Frankfurt Parliament there was a proposal to create a German Empire with Fredrich Wilhelm IV as emperor, this failed because he refused the crown. Later Prussia proposed the Erfurt Union, this failed after Prussia suffered a diplomatic humiliation. Finally, after the Franco-Prussian War Germany unified into a single state.

Does anyone know of any other proposed ideas to unify German? or where there variations on these ideas that could have been used instead?

Zach's old Pax Napoleonica timeline had a Westphalia-led conglomerate of German states (allied with Napoleonic France) forging a united Germany instead. A smaller and weaker Prussia never forgave them this, refused to join, and allied itself with an ATL-fascist Russia in the first half of the 20th century. During the period of growing Prussian revanchism towards the other German states, they even published a nationalist pamphlet about the rise or reawakening of a new Prussia.

 

[GauchoBadger]

... by the time the Crimean Crisis would be playing out the window for Erfurt would be long dead, with the Frankfurters having seen the Liberal Revolutions elsewhere fizzle out and the Habsburg armies having had time to come in and support the local conservative nobility (quite possibly with Russian support), removing any need for a compromise.

The part about German liberalism is true, but wasn't OTL's Erfurt Union supposed to appease the landed nobility, as per Prussian interests?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

The part about German liberalism is true, but wasn't OTL's Erfurt Union supposed to appease the landed nobility, as per Prussian interests?

Yes, but appease them as a compromise/conservative system relative to the liberal, essentially bougious Republican vision of the Frankfurt Parliament. Delay the call to Union behyond the period of max Habsburg distraction and the landed nobility get the option of the far more favorable to them antibellum state... why not take that instead?

 

[Balerion]

Well. there is the Napoleonic Era Confederation of the Rhine which basically was Germany at its "territorial" height. Full on Unification could happen if the confederation turned on Napoleon, actually unified its land, then resisted the movements of Prussia and Austria during the Congress of Vienna. Fairly far fetched in every sense of the phrase, but something I haven't seen mentioned in the thread so far.

map of the Confederation in 1813(height of territory)

 

[Max Sinister]

Well. there is the Napoleonic Era Confederation of the Rhine which basically was Germany at its "territorial" height.

Don't you mean: "territorial low"?

 

[Balerion]

Don't you mean: "territorial low"?

The height of the Confederations territorial reach was a good deal of modern Germany, probably didn’t make that real clear, my bad

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Well. there is the Napoleonic Era Confederation of the Rhine which basically was Germany at its "territorial" height. Full on Unification could happen if the confederation turned on Napoleon, actually unified its land, then resisted the movements of Prussia and Austria during the Congress of Vienna. Fairly far fetched in every sense of the phrase, but something I haven't seen mentioned in the thread so far.

map of the Confederation in 1813(height of territory)
View attachment 402396

There's a reason for that; the C.o.t.R was a Napoleonic creation, and the Empire was the glue that held the formally autonomous states in the (loose) unity that the confederation provided. Such a movement goes in exactly the opposite direction of motivations/interests of the pretty much every state in question

 

[Deleted member 109224]

There's the possibility of a "Third Germany" option.

Bavaria came somewhat close to annexing Baden in the 1810s (IIRC the Bavarian King was second or third in line). If they annex Baden and Wurrtemburg marches in lockstep with Bavaria as it did OTL, I could imagine the Frankfurt Parliament offering the Crown to the Bavarian King.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Boundaries of a Bavaria-Baden unified Germany in 1848 likely would be Bavaria, Baden, Rhenish Prussia, Wurrtemburg, Nassau, Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darnstadt, and the Thuringian states.

There wasn't much discontent in Oldenburg historically. Saxony is too close geographically to Prussia to liberate. Hanover opposed the Frankfurt Parliament's proposals historically.


Prussia will be an enemy following the revolution. Austria too perhaps, though the Austrians might have bigger fish to fry (Italy, the Balkans, etc). An independent mini-Germany means that Prussia doesn't dominate Germany, so it's kind of a win for Austria. They'd probably be focused on making sure Prussia doesn't dominate Saxony.

Hanover and Oldenburg might end up with developments similar to OTL Luxembourg.

Denmark may successfully integrate Schleswig and Holstein, with big knock-on effects down the line. Alternatively, the Duke of Oldenburg might just not abandon his claim to Schleswig and Holstein in 1867 TTL. That'd be weird. Oldenburg sided with Prussia OTL and Mecklenburg was in the Prussian orbit - I could see Prussia backing Oldenburg against Denmark in order to get Atlantic access.

 

[stevej713]

Prussia will be an enemy following the revolution. Austria too perhaps, though the Austrians might have bigger fish to fry (Italy, the Balkans, etc). An independent mini-Germany means that Prussia doesn't dominate Germany, so it's kind of a win for Austria. They'd probably be focused on making sure Prussia doesn't dominate Saxony.

I've been interested in this scenario for a while now. But how successfully could this hypothetical state defend itself against the Prussian army? Perhaps if it somehow gets newly-Republican France on its side?

 

[Deleted member 109224]

I've been interested in this scenario for a while now. But how successfully could this hypothetical state defend itself against the Prussian army? Perhaps if it somehow gets newly-Republican France on its side?

That seems like the most likely way for it to happen. I imagine there'd be propaganda looking back upon the Confederation of the Rhine positively.

Maybe France intervenes and regains Landau and the Saarland.