Other cases of countries being partitioned?

CaliGuy

Banned
In our TL, Germany, Korea, Vietnam, and China (in relation to Taiwan) were partitioned into a capitalist country and a Communist country.

Anyway, which additional countries could have realistically been partitioned in a similar manner? Specifically, I am thinking of two separate countries where each of them considers the other one to be an illegitimate country and government.
 
I'm not sure how likely it actually is, based on logistics, but I know that Japan's been floated at least a few times as a possibility. Say without the USA dropping the bomb, and a joint US-Soviet invasion of the main island.
 
A few easy options - mainland China (if the KMT is able to contain the PRC to Manchuria or northern China), Japan (if 1945 plays out a little differently), Poland (if 1942-1943 plays out rather differently). You might manage something with Italy and perhaps Iran, too. I'm not sure how plausible it is, but maybe Greece as well, with Crete (and Cyprus?) as a Hellenic Taiwan?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I'm not sure how likely it actually is, based on logistics, but I know that Japan's been floated at least a few times as a possibility. Say without the USA dropping the bomb, and a joint US-Soviet invasion of the main island.
The Soviet Union would indeed have the logistics to invade Hokkaido in September 1945, correct?
 
The Soviet Union would indeed have the logistics to invade Hokkaido in September 1945, correct?

To my knowledge, they could've pulled it off. My issue about logistics is more in dividing the island itself. Although, I suppose an island isn't all too different from a peninsula. That said, though, what portions of the island fall under American control could have a great impact on our action in Korea.
 
The Soviet Union would indeed have the logistics to invade Hokkaido in September 1945, correct?
With losses, but yes. The USSR better asset was the lack of a Japanese defense, since nearly all defenders were waiting for the American invasion. At least, that's what I remember about the last time the issue was brought in this forum.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
To my knowledge, they could've pulled it off. My issue about logistics is more in dividing the island itself. Although, I suppose an island isn't all too different from a peninsula. That said, though, what portions of the island fall under American control could have a great impact on our action in Korea.
Couldn't the Soviet Union get all of Hokkaido in this TL?
 
Couldn't the Soviet Union get all of Hokkaido in this TL?

I'm not super well versed in Soviet military strength/strategy in this time period (or for that matter, any time period), but I'd imagine they could take the whole of Hokkaido if they wanted to. I just wonder if they'd be willing to take such high losses, especially if they thought they'd at least be able to get half of it and leave the other half to the Americans. I mean, it's better than the none of (the main island, anyways) Japan they got IOTL, no?

Edit: I was under the mistaken belief that Hokkaido referred to the entirety of mainland Japan. In this case, yes, I think they could've relatively easily taken all of Hokkaido without any American support.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
A few easy options - mainland China (if the KMT is able to contain the PRC to Manchuria or northern China),

Where would the new border be?

Japan (if 1945 plays out a little differently),

A Soviet Hokkaido and Western everything else, correct?

Poland (if 1942-1943 plays out rather differently).

A partitioned Poland would look very weird, though. Plus, it would create a huge problem due to the fact that there will be a weak pro-Western half of Poland which will take a lot of territories from Germany after the end of World War II.

Basically, imagine what would happen if the Oder-Neisse issue was put on the front-burner 45 years earlier and if Poland was weak and divided.

You might manage something with Italy

Italy is rather hard considering that the Germans stalled the Western Allies a lot there as it is, no?

and perhaps Iran, too.

You mean if the Soviets never withdraw from northern Iran?

I'm not sure how plausible it is, but maybe Greece as well, with Crete (and Cyprus?) as a Hellenic Taiwan?

Greece is probably possible if the Communists there (mostly) win the civil war in the late 1940s; however, a better dividing line might be the border between the Peloponnese and the rest of Greece since that will allow the pro-Western Greeks to keep control of a part of mainland Greece while also having an extremely defensible border.

Northern and Southern Iran?

That could work if the Soviet Union never withdraws from northern Iran.

Afghanistan?

You mean if the Soviet Union withdraws from southern Afghanistan but sets up its own puppet state in northern Afghanistan?
 
Where would the new border be?

I've heard the Huai River mentioned (instead of the more obvious Yangzi, which is instead suggested as the commercial/industrial heart of the ROC South China).

A Soviet Hokkaido and Western everything else, correct?

Right.

A partitioned Poland would look very weird, though. Plus, it would create a huge problem due to the fact that there will be a weak pro-Western half of Poland which will take a lot of territories from Germany after the end of World War II.

Basically, imagine what would happen if the Oder-Neisse issue was put on the front-burner 45 years earlier and if Poland was weak and divided.

True, but history is full of weird things.

Italy is rather hard considering that the Germans stalled the Western Allies a lot there as it is, no?

I've seen it suggested once or twice around here, I think. Maybe a more successful Soviet advance through eastern Europe (esp. Austria) combined with a less successful Allied push up the Italian boot, or else shenanigans in immediate post-war period?

You mean if the Soviets never withdraw from northern Iran?

Right.

Greece is probably possible if the Communists there (mostly) win the civil war in the late 1940s; however, a better dividing line might be the border between the Peloponnese and the rest of Greece since that will allow the pro-Western Greeks to keep control of a part of mainland Greece while also having an extremely defensible border.

Fair point!
 
In our TL, Germany, Korea, Vietnam, and China (in relation to Taiwan) were partitioned into a capitalist country and a Communist country.

Anyway, which additional countries could have realistically been partitioned in a similar manner? Specifically, I am thinking of two separate countries where each of them considers the other one to be an illegitimate country and government.
Any surviving South Vietnam TL would likely require some sort of partition of Laos.
 
Or a China which is more willing and capable of restraining North Vietnam, no?
China isn't going to undermine North Vietnam unless Americans and their proxy force is gone. Short of having the border skirmishes turn into an all out war or having the Vietnamese-Cambodian War somehow occur durring the Vietnam War, China's going to play nice with its buffer state so long as its actually acting as a buffer.

OTL the Laotian civil war allowed North Vietnamese fighters and supplies to pour through to the Vietnamese highlands or further through communist controlled regions of Cambodia to the Mekong Delta. As long as that remains the case South Vietnam's position is entirely untenable, as its entire western border is effectively the military frontier. Establishing a reasonably stable "South Laos" immediately completely shifts the balance of power to where South Vietnam not only can win, but is actually likely to win (the ARVN was much larger and better equipped than the NVA).
 
Anyway, which additional countries could have realistically been partitioned in a similar manner?

Austria, even if it's a hard one. Basically, the KPÖ (Communist Party of Austria) secretly supported an Austrian partition because they couldn't hope to win free elections and therefore wanted to establish a communist dictatorship in eastern Austria (the Soviet occupation zone). However, it didn't happen because Stalin was opposed to it. Basically, Stalin wanted both Germany and Austria to be neutral, capitalist states paying reparations to the USSR and being no threat to the Soviets.

It didn't work in Germany, but Austria accepted these conditions, signed the Austrian State Treaty of 1955 and thus avoided partition.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
A partitioned Poland would look very weird, though. Plus, it would create a huge problem due to the fact that there will be a weak pro-Western half of Poland which will take a lot of territories from Germany after the end of World War II.

Basically, imagine what would happen if the Oder-Neisse issue was put on the front-burner 45 years earlier and if Poland was weaker.

If the Allies get half of Poland they might decide to enact the Morgenthau Plan, so Germany could have bigger problems to worry about. The Soviets might also decide to make their chunk of Poland an SSR rather than setting up a puppet state.
 
Are you thinking specifically of a Cold War-style Capitalist/Communist split, or simply a partition between rival governments in general?

Angola comes to mind as a strong contender for this. Say if the US does better in Vietnam and is therefore more willing to get involved in Angola you could have an analogous partition between the US and South African supported UNITA government in the South and the Soviet and Cuban supported government in the North. I don't know enough of the details to sugget what the precise border would be though. Still, seems like a strong possibility for partition.

Greece is probably possible if the Communists there (mostly) win the civil war in the late 1940s; however, a better dividing line might be the border between the Peloponnese and the rest of Greece since that will allow the pro-Western Greeks to keep control of a part of mainland Greece while also having an extremely defensible border.

I think a border somewhere in Thessaly is much, much more likely than one along the Isthmus of Corinth. I'm thinking a border broadly similar to that between pre-1913 Greece and the Ottoman Empire, or of that between the Royal and Venizelist governments in 1916. Essentially, the further north you go the more support and the Communists will have from the other communist states in the Balkans, while if they push too far south they'll get farther from their base and get closer to positions that more strongly threaten Western interests.
 
Many of the colonial wars had multiple armies fighting the European state. If some of them end in stalemate, partition could be likely. This might be limited because the colonial borders were artificial so the two sides might not really think of themselves as two parts of one country
 
A partitioned Poland would look very weird, though. Plus, it would create a huge problem due to the fact that there will be a weak pro-Western half of Poland which will take a lot of territories from Germany after the end of World War II.

Basically, imagine what would happen if the Oder-Neisse issue was put on the front-burner 45 years earlier and if Poland was weak and divided.

If you have East and West Poland, how is West Poland going to get from united, pro-Western Germany territories which are majority or essentially entirely German? It sounds like an issue which the WAllies will drop in favour of maintaining control over Germany and helping internal stability in West Poland (no massive German minority, no need to expel them either). Can West Poland get territorial concessions from Germany? Yes, but I highly doubt they can get the OTL borders in the west.

Stalin and the Soviets will have little say in this matter since they won't be the ones determining the borders, although no doubt they will take away at least East Prussia from the Germans.
 
Yugoslavia? Split between a northern communist state and a royalist Serbian state?

Also, IIRC there were proposals for the partition of Austria too. Hopefully I don't remember that just from a TL.
 
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