Oswald Mosley and Charles Lindbergh in charge of a neutral UK and US during WWII

How would things change if Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists, became Prime Minister and what if well known isolationist and air hero and suspected Nazi sympathiser in Charles Lindbergh became President leading to both countries staying out of the conflict in Europe?

France would still declare war on Germany after they invade Poland, but after Germany mops up Europe just like in OTL, except with no British help, the war in Europe is basically over and Germany turns it's focussed eyes to the Soviets for a 1 v 1 war.
 
Pretty unlikely that either would come to power, but yes, your description of what would happen in Europe seems fairly plausible.

I'm thinking Mosley, moreso than Lindbergh, might eventually face domestic pressure to enter the war, if reverberations from the continent are felt in Britain. And Lindy would almost certainly have to go to war in the event of Japan attacking US territory, though he'd likely try to stay outta Europe.
 
How would things change if Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists, became Prime Minister
"One would have had to look a long time to find a man more barren of ideas than Sir Oswald Mosley. He was as hollow as a jug. Even the elementary fact that Fascism must not offend national sentiment had escaped him. His entire movement was imitated slavishly from abroad, the uniform and the party programme from Italy and the salute from Germany, with the Jew-baiting tacked on as an afterthought, Mosley having actually started his movement with Jews among his most prominent followers. A man of the stamp of Bottomley or Lloyd George could perhaps have brought a real British Fascist movement into existence. But such leaders only appear when the psychological need for them exists." http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_ter

(Whether Mosley could have become Prime Minister one day if he had stayed with Labour is a different question--unlikely IMO--but the British Union of Fascists is simply not going to come to power; they didn't even put up any candidates in the 1935 General Election.)
 
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Pretty unlikely that either would come to power, but yes, your description of what would happen in Europe seems fairly plausible.

I'm thinking Mosley, moreso than Lindbergh, might eventually face domestic pressure to enter the war, if reverberations from the continent are felt in Britain. And Lindy would almost certainly have to go to war in the event of Japan attacking US territory, though he'd likely try to stay outta Europe.
Yeah, what we know of WWII today would instead be a bunch of separate wars. The Germans vs France and Europe, U.S. vs Japan, China vs Japan, Germans vs Soviets
 
I'm pretty sure they would, with the situation in the Rhineland.
IMHO France can't defeat Germany without another great power on its side and AIUI the French Government of they day thought so too.

Furthermore, I think there's a good chance that Mussolini would declare war on France in the autumn of 1939 ITTL.

The OP doesn't say when Mosley became Prime Minister of Great Britain. If it's before 1936 there's a good chance that the TTL Spanish Civil War will be shorter and less destructive. So the person leading Fascist Spain ITTL might declare war on France in the autumn of 1939 too. Even if Spain was in its OTL condition the benevolently neutral American and British Governments will make sure that Franco receives all the food and oil that he demands.

The French Government will consider that when it is deciding whether it should go to war with Germany. I think that they won't declare war. The chance of finding themselves in a two or three front war that they can't win is too great.

Also, as I mentioned benevolently neutral American and British Governments, the TTL French Government won't be able to buy any arms from the USA. However, they may well be selling arms and raw materials to Germany (plus Italy and Spain if they're in the war) on favourable terms.
 
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How would things change if Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists, became Prime Minister and what if well known isolationist and air hero and suspected Nazi sympathiser in Charles Lindbergh became President leading to both countries staying out of the conflict in Europe?
When does Mosley become Prime Minister of Great Britain ITTL?

Does Charles Lindbergh become President of the United States by winning the 1936 Election. IOTL was that the election when everyone hated F.D.R. except the voters?
 
France would still declare war on Germany after they invade Poland, but after Germany mops up Europe just like in OTL, except with no British help, the war in Europe is basically over and Germany turns to the Soviets for a 1 v 1 war.
There might not be a Nazi-Soviet Pact ITTL.

The Germans might think that they don't need one because they know that Britain won't declare war over Poland and France is too weak to do anything about it alone so they won't declare war either. Plus they don't need Soviet raw materials because the won't be a British blockade.

Meanwhile, Stalin might think that it's better to form an alliance with France and the Balkan countries against Germany, Italy and Spain.
 
When does Mosley become Prime Minister of Great Britain ITTL?

Does Charles Lindbergh become President of the United States by winning the 1936 Election. IOTL was that the election when everyone hated F.D.R. except the voters?
Maybe the POD is early enough that the isolationists in the GOP are running things circa 1936?
 
I could kind of imagine the NEW Party taking office, more easliy that the BUF as such
Its border line impossible for a third party to take power in the UK whilst starting from scratch. Mosley's best chance at becoming PM would be if he had stayed in one of the two main parties. He was closer to leading Labour, but he would probably find a neutral stance to be more tenable if he stayed with Tories and eventually became PM, given how they provided most of the support for appeasement by 1939.
 
Lindbergh could keep America out of the war in Europe, but preventing the Asia-Pacific war is unlikely. Japan and the USA were on a collision course over the Asia-Pacific region. That course started in 1895 with the First Sino-Japanese War, and war became more and more likely as time went on. I wouldn't say there's any one point where averting it goes from reasonably plausible to ASB, but the Marco Polo Bridge Incident marks the point where avoiding it goes from highly unlikely but not impossible to complete ASB.
 
A world in which Charles Lindbergh is president in 1939 (we're not talking about him being elected in November 1940--even that is very unlikely but not quite inconceivable) and Oswald Mosley is British Union of Fascists Prime Minister in 1939 (we're not talking about him becoming Labour Prime Minister--even that is very unlikely but not quite inconceivable) would be a world totally different from our own and totally different from our own well before 1939. (In OTL the BUF didn't even run candidates in the 1935 General Election; and FDR was of course unbeatable by Lindbergh or anyone else in 1936, even if Lindbergh had the slightest desire to run that year, which he didn't AFAIK.)

And yet we assume World War II breaks out at the same time and in the same way (Hitler invades Poland in September 1939...) as in OTL! I'm getting a little bit tired of pointing out the problem with "drastically change the world long before major political event X but assume event X will be as in OTL" posts, but someone has to do it...
 
A world in which Charles Lindbergh is president in 1939 (we're not talking about him being elected in November 1940--even that is very unlikely but not quite inconceivable) and Oswald Mosley is British Union of Fascists Prime Minister in 1939 (we're not talking about him becoming Labour Prime Minister--even that is very unlikely but not quite inconceivable) would be a world totally different from our own and totally different from our own well before 1939. (In OTL the BUF didn't even run candidates in the 1935 General Election; and FDR was of course unbeatable by Lindbergh or anyone else in 1936, even if Lindbergh had the slightest desire to run that year, which he didn't AFAIK.)

And yet we assume World War II breaks out at the same time and in the same way (Hitler invades Poland in September 1939...) as in OTL! I'm getting a little bit tired of pointing out the problem with "drastically change the world long before major political event X but assume event X will be as in OTL" posts, but someone has to do it...
I agree. That's why I questioned of the french would declare if Hitler would invade Poland (him invading Poland is likely. although it may be a a different time). I wanted to expand on that, but @NOMISYRRUC already made some points I wanted to make. With the UK not allied to France, France would seek another ally, because otherwise they'd be screwed between the fascist states of Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK. They'd be very nervous about that. And the USSR comes into the picture for them.

A french-russian alliance might be interesting for Poland to join, although they wouldn't like the idea of russians on their soil. Such an alliance might make Hitler hesitant about invading Poland.

Even though Poland wouldn't be eager to have an alliance with the USSR, after Hitler annexing Austria, Sudetenland and Tchechoslovakia*, they will know Danzig is the next step, so they will consider a russian alliance, especially if the french are allied with Russia.

*I'm pretty sure these will happen, although they may happen earlier than OTL, depending when Mosley came into power.
 
When does Mosley become Prime Minister of Great Britain ITTL?

Does Charles Lindbergh become President of the United States by winning the 1936 Election. IOTL was that the election when everyone hated F.D.R. except the voters?
1936 for Mosley and 1940 for Lindbergh
 
1936 for Mosley and 1940 for Lindbergh
The second is unlikely but not totally inconceivable--but the OP was about the initial phases of the War, which it would not affect in any event.

Mosley in 1936--how? (I mean at least a a Fascist? As I've said, his staying with Labour is another matter.) The BUF didn't even put up any candidates in the 1935 General Election . "The Blackshirts never came close to seizing a parish council, let alone the state..." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/oct/13/thefarright.politicalcolumnists

As George Orwell wrote, "One would have had to look a long time to find a man more barren of ideas than Sir Oswald Mosley. He was as hollow as a jug. Even the elementary fact that Fascism must not offend national sentiment had escaped him. His entire movement was imitated slavishly from abroad, the uniform and the party programme from Italy and the salute from Germany, with the Jew-baiting tacked on as an afterthought, Mosley having actually started his movement with Jews among his most prominent followers. A man of the stamp of Bottomley or Lloyd George could perhaps have brought a real British Fascist movement into existence. But such leaders only appear when the psychological need for them exists." http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_ter
 
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The second is unlikely but not totally inconceivable--but the OP was about the initial phases of the War, which it would not affect in any event.

Mosley in 1936--how? (I mean at least a a Fascist? As I've said, his staying with Labour is another matter.) The BUF didn't even put up any candidates in the 1935 General Election . "The Blackshirts never came close to seizing a parish council, let alone the state..." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/oct/13/thefarright.politicalcolumnists

As George Orwell wrote, "One would have had to look a long time to find a man more barren of ideas than Sir Oswald Mosley. He was as hollow as a jug. Even the elementary fact that Fascism must not offend national sentiment had escaped him. His entire movement was imitated slavishly from abroad, the uniform and the party programme from Italy and the salute from Germany, with the Jew-baiting tacked on as an afterthought, Mosley having actually started his movement with Jews among his most prominent followers. A man of the stamp of Bottomley or Lloyd George could perhaps have brought a real British Fascist movement into existence. But such leaders only appear when the psychological need for them exists." http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_ter
Obviously the POD is greater support for Mosley and perhaps Edward VIII refuses to abdicate.
 
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