Ostsiedlung?

Nietzsche

Banned
How far can one realistically stretch Ostsiedlung? Your challenge, should you chose to accept it, is with a PoD no earlier than 1340, is to stretch what may or may not later be known as "Germany" as far east as possible.

Minor Requirements:

Congress Poland must be nigh-completely Germanized as well as Lithuania. Everything else is up to you.
 
I don't know that you could get a Germanized Lithuania with a POD after 1340... ditto for Poland.

I suppose it could somehow involve the Teutonic Order... maybe John of Bohemia wants to press his claim to Poland, and allies with the Order to partition the state. The Knights then Germanize Poland, and use that base to attack Lithuania?
 
Is it too late to bring the Mongols in to help us out with some barbarism? Failing that how about German population booms due to new farming techniques? Larger German armies and more immigration East?
 

Susano

Banned
I think I made a thread to that regard some time back. Question is of coruse wether there are enouzgh Germans to settel even more lands at all!

I guess, whats possible is that somehow Poland doesnt consolidate at state while at the same time remaining pagan - thus becoming in effect the same as East-Elbian Germany. Thus it can be christianised over time, and in that process becomes Germanized a swell. The problems just... East-Elbian Germany plus Poland, thats a LOT of land. I cant really see it ALL becoming Germanised in the process of Christianisation. And then also additionally Lithuania...

What may have more potential is the Pannonian Plain. Say an ASB ISOTs all Magyars to Middle Earth before they reach Central Europe ( ;), that is, the Hungarians dont settle in the Pannonian Plain) and that Charlemagne Carantanian Marches survive. They could in time expand to maybe cover the entire Plain. Of cours,e the problem with THAT is that no Magyars means no rise of Otto I the Great - or, more geenrally spoken, less impetus for the unfication of the German tribal duchies. Its nopt inevbitably that way, but it could be that Germany doesnt even hold together as realm an dnation - though we can make that a third condition next to no Magyars and no fall of teh Carantanian Marches, of course.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I think I made a thread to that regard some time back. Question is of coruse wether there are enouzgh Germans to settel even more lands at all!

I guess, whats possible is that somehow Poland doesnt consolidate at state while at the same time remaining pagan - thus becoming in effect the same as East-Elbian Germany. Thus it can be christianised over time, and in that process becomes Germanized a swell. The problems just... East-Elbian Germany plus Poland, thats a LOT of land. I cant really see it ALL becoming Germanised in the process of Christianisation. And then also additionally Lithuania...

What may have more potential is the Pannonian Plain. Say an ASB ISOTs all Magyars to Middle Earth before they reach Central Europe ( ;), that is, the Hungarians dont settle in the Pannonian Plain) and that Charlemagne Carantanian Marches survive. They could in time expand to maybe cover the entire Plain. Of cours,e the problem with THAT is that no Magyars means no rise of Otto I the Great - or, more geenrally spoken, less impetus for the unfication of the German tribal duchies. Its nopt inevbitably that way, but it could be that Germany doesnt even hold together as realm an dnation - though we can make that a third condition next to no Magyars and no fall of teh Carantanian Marches, of course.

Would it be possible to have the borders of the 3rd Partition of Poland be "Majority German"?
 

Susano

Banned
Would it be possible to have the borders of the 3rd Partition of Poland be "Majority German"?

Yes, I guess. It would be a century-long process, so everything would have to go sufficiently well for centuries, but possible, that it is, I think.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Yes, I guess. It would be a century-long process, so everything would have to go sufficiently well for centuries, but possible, that it is, I think.

You're the undisputed God of all Germanic history..how do you think it would go? What would the Netherlands look like, the rest of Europe should this occur?
 

Susano

Banned
You're the undisputed God of all Germanic history..how do you think it would go? What would the Netherlands look like, the rest of Europe should this occur?

Im not so sure - such social questions (and settlment is in the social area), and esepcially the Middle Ages in general, fall more into Carltons portfolio ;)

As for effects on Europe, well... I guess it depends on what effects that has on the HRE. As said, such a process would take centuries, and probably involve various "cruades". In a certain way that would give the HRE a mission, a purpose... so it might not decentralise. OTOH, its just as likely it will just as IOTL. It depends on the butterflies, really, so Ill just assume it goes as OTL and leave the rest to said butterflies. I think the various marches that will be formed in what IOTL is Poland would most likely become somewhat coherent states. By that I mean... well, if you look at how the East-Elbian territories developed IOTL, youll see that the three way-split of Geros March after the great slavic uprising was largely retained, with Mecklenburg, Brandenburg and Saxony, whereas in the rest of Germany the old duchies fell apart in ever smaller states. Which makes sense, because the Emperors tried to break the power of those Dukes. So, yes, most likely those territories would be slightly less balkanised than the rest...

Now, for the effects on Europe - if the HRE decentralises as per IOTL those effects will mainly come from the absence of Poland. And, unfortunately, for Polish history I am no real expert. But then, it seems to me that before the dynastical union with Lithuania Poland did not have all that much influence anyways, so maybe not that large effects...
 
I think I made a thread to that regard some time back. Question is of coruse wether there are enouzgh Germans to settel even more lands at all!

I guess, whats possible is that somehow Poland doesnt consolidate at state while at the same time remaining pagan - thus becoming in effect the same as East-Elbian Germany. Thus it can be christianised over time, and in that process becomes Germanized a swell. The problems just... East-Elbian Germany plus Poland, thats a LOT of land. I cant really see it ALL becoming Germanised in the process of Christianisation. And then also additionally Lithuania...

What may have more potential is the Pannonian Plain. Say an ASB ISOTs all Magyars to Middle Earth before they reach Central Europe ( ;), that is, the Hungarians dont settle in the Pannonian Plain) and that Charlemagne Carantanian Marches survive. They could in time expand to maybe cover the entire Plain. Of cours,e the problem with THAT is that no Magyars means no rise of Otto I the Great - or, more geenrally spoken, less impetus for the unfication of the German tribal duchies. Its nopt inevbitably that way, but it could be that Germany doesnt even hold together as realm an dnation - though we can make that a third condition next to no Magyars and no fall of teh Carantanian Marches, of course.

It could still lead to eastward expansion... the Saxons did in the north, which could still potentially continued even if Germany were to collapse.
 
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