Osman Reborn; The Survival of Ottoman Democracy [An Ottoman TL set in the 1900s]

[boredviewer1234]

Well I must say it's always a bit jarring coming to this site and learning about historical minorities that gone today, as I recognize the Ajam, Circassian, Tatar and Turkmen only.

both are impossible really. Crimea would need to see Ethnic cleansing of the highest order to make Tatars a majority from Slavs and Circassia would need one of the largest genocides in history to make it circassian majority again. Frankly put both regions are going to remain slavic majority, which means they're going to want to remain in a slavic state (which in the absence of Ukraine is simply Russia). And the new democratic government in the OE will have little appetite for ethnic cleansing and genocide, and especially not the OE's population.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure you can't ''merely'' just do as Russia if they lost Crimea would dam the rivers leading into it to spite the Ottomans.

Add in those slavs from Circassia would just to other parts of the Russian empire like Abkhazia and begin attacking and raiding on their own with or without Russian support.

After all one merely needs to look at the actual Circassian nationalists still fleeing into the Ottoman empire to see the locals won't just submit after the genocide.

So would need the caucus's, Crimea, bits of Ukraine, and Circassia for it to be sustainable, and that would A a level of ethnic cleansing comparable to WW2, B I'm sure the Russian empire loyalists and Slav nationalists would sooner bit off one of their arms than accept losing all that and would need to break the Russian empire for them to accept it.

 

[Sarthak]

Well I must say it's always a bit jarring coming to this site and learning about historical minorities that gone today, as I recognize the Ajam, Circassian, Tatar and Turkmen only.

The Old Italians were expelled in 1923, and the Cappadocian Greeks were of course sent over to Greece in the population exchange. Though the others survive, albeit in diminished numbers.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure you can't ''merely'' just do as Russia if they lost Crimea would dam the rivers leading into it to spite the Ottomans.

Add in those slavs from Circassia would just to other parts of the Russian empire like Abkhazia and begin attacking and raiding on their own with or without Russian support.

After all one merely needs to look at the actual Circassian nationalists still fleeing into the Ottoman empire to see the locals won't just submit after the genocide.

So would need the caucus's, Crimea, bits of Ukraine, and Circassia for it to be sustainable, and that would A a level of ethnic cleansing comparable to WW2, B I'm sure the Russian empire loyalists and Slav nationalists would sooner bit off one of their arms than accept losing all that and would need to break the Russian empire for them to accept it.

Pretty much

 

[Sarthak]

In particular the survival of the Old Italians will be interesting. The last vestige of Latin heritage in Anatolia, even if their numbers remain relatively small

 

[Pio2013]

The crimean tatars allocation in politics reminds me of what happened with Baibars.

 

[Sarthak]

The crimean tatars allocation in politics reminds me of what happened with Baibars.

It is somewhat similar

 

[Harold]

both are impossible really. Crimea would need to see Ethnic cleansing of the highest order to make Tatars a majority from Slavs and Circassia would need one of the largest genocides in history to make it circassian majority again. Frankly put both regions are going to remain slavic majority, which means they're going to want to remain in a slavic state (which in the absence of Ukraine is simply Russia). And the new democratic government in the OE will have little appetite for ethnic cleansing and genocide, and especially not the OE's population.

Bit of a shame, but understandable. I always wanted to see a Crimean Resurgent TL. That said, what about the region of Chechnya and Dagestan?

 

[Sarthak]

Bit of a shame, but understandable. I always wanted to see a Crimean Resurgent TL. That said, what about the region of Chechnya and Dagestan?

Those are possible as well.

 

[Sarthak]

Spoiler: Scene from "The Siege of Athens (1999 Movie)"

1944, Athens, Kingdom of Greece

Alexandros Papagos muttered curses underneath his breath as he looked at the map of the trenches outside of the city of Athens again. The Germans and Hungarians were pushing deep into the final lines and if the last lines fell, then despite the turn of war, Athens would fall, which would be devastating to the cause of war for the Allied Powers. He stumbled down onto his chair rubbing his eyes, not knowing what to tell the King and Prime Minister in his daily report. He picked up the pen and a sheet of paper before sighing and stowing them away again. He was about to stand up and take a glass of much-needed wine when a message courier stumbled into the office.

Papagos simply raised an eyebrow in question. Instances such as these had happened too many times during the siege for him to be angry about it anymore.

"General." The courier gasped. "The Ottomans.......The Ottoman 5th Army has arrived in Avlona sir. They have defeated, with British air support, a German counterattack. The Germans are now surrounded on the Attican Peninsula."

The dread of defeat was immediately replaced by the vigor of victory. Papagos stood up immediately and dismissed the courier and started his report quickly. Who knew that 500 years after the Ottomans came to Athens to conquer it, they were once again coming to Athens.......only this time to liberate it.

Spoiler: Scene from "South China Sea (2007)"

1943, South China Sea

Chen Shaokuan, Captain of the Qianlong Cruiser didn't know what to expect. The British had warned him that after years of deflecting the issue, the government in Constantinople had finally agreed to send a small detachment of ships from the Red Sea Fleet and Persian Gulf Fleet to aid the Sino-British Naval force against the impending Japanese Naval attack. Commanding the 3rd Cruiser Squadron, Chen was anxious to finally destroy Japanese Naval Superiority in the South China Sea, and to finally isolate the Japanese troops in Indochina as a result. The War in Manchuria was going badly and the Chinese government needed this reprieve now more than ever.

As the morning mist dissipated, he could see the Ottoman squadrons - two squadrons had been sent apparently - arrive next to his own squadron. Whilst most of the ships were medium and small in scale, destroyers and light cruisers, an imposing battlecruiser, the only battleship the Ottomans had sent apparently, led the Ottoman Squadrons, and flew the banner of the Ottoman Kapudan Pasha, signifying its role as flagship. Chen had heard about this particular battlecruiser. Built by Franco-British contractors in Constantinople in 1935, and only commissioned in late 1940. The Hayreddin Barbarossa. This ship and its class were apparently the answer of the Ottomans against the Italian Augustus Class. It's large guns and armor gleamed in the morning sun as the Sino-Ottoman squadrons neared each other.

Chen finally stood up and straightened to enter the allied ship for battle planning. The small amount of ships sent by Constantinople - damn the politicians and bureaucrats for that! - meant that the Ottoman ships would not be able to play a large role in the Battle that was to come; but they would still be crucial, Chen knew that for sure.

Spoiler: Scene from "The Albanian Bey (2018):

January, 1944, Occupied Albania

For Ahmet Muhtar Zogoli, time flew by in the small camp of his militia like an immediate blink. The daily routine was the same. Wake up, eat breakfast, go and disrupt Concordat supply lines, and then retreat, come back to camp, eat dinner, and sleep. It had been three years already, Zogoli mused. But for now, he had another important mission to conduct; that of weapon's procurement.

The government in Constantinople had enforced strict gun regulations after the troubles in Yemen in the late 1920s and early 1930s, and as a result, finding actual guns in the Ottoman Empire not commissioned by the government, occupied or not, was a tiresome job. But for now, the Ottomans, supported by British and French airpower were ferrying much-needed weapons to guerilla leaders like him through transport ships. He gripped the pistol in his right hand whilst following the map in his left hand. One eye of his focused on the map and another on his surroundings. After a few minutes of tense walking, he saw a few crates scattered in a small clearing inside the dense Albanian forests of Peshk. He allowed himself to grin slightly and whistled. A few seconds later, his men appeared behind him, and soon the crates were being transported to his camp.

As Zogoli turned to leave, his mission completed, he saw the air trail of planes in the sky. In the distance, a blurry form of Ottoman and British transport ships flew away. Zogoli smiled and saluted the disappearing planes before disappearing into the woods as well.

 

[Sarthak]

and that's the last pre-written chapter until September 26. Thoughts?

 

[Lemonfish]

Looks like TTL WW2 sides would be similar to OTL, UK+France+China VS German+Japan, only add Ottoman and possibly Danubia to the allied side ( You hinted Russian had civil war in 30s, so I don't think they would join the war.)

 

[Sarthak]

Looks like TTL WW2 sides would be similar to OTL, UK+France+China VS German+Japan, only add Ottoman and possibly Danubia to the allied side ( You hinted Russian had civil war in 30s, so I don't think they would join the war.)

A good portion (but not all) are otl countries but the circumstances and events are very different than iotl.

 

[DeltaEnterprise252]

A good portion (but not all) are otl countries but the circumstances and events are very different than iotl.

One of them shows a Chinese naval ship. It's safe to assume that Ottoman reforms must have led to butterflies that allowed for a more stable China to be around in the 1940s rather than the coalition of warlords and central government.

 

[Sarthak]

One of them shows a Chinese naval ship. It's safe to assume that Ottoman reforms must have led to butterflies that allowed for a more stable China to be around in the 1940s rather than the coalition of warlords and central government.

The Chinese Civil War I leads to a lot of consolidation to say the least.

 

[Hawabin]

The Germans and Hungarians were pushing deep into the final lines

So Danubia is divided during the war and Hungary becomes independent and then join this Axis side. (One can also assume that they might have rebelled against the Kingdom of Danubia)

"General." The courier gasped. "The Ottomans.......The Ottoman 5th Army has arrived in Avlona sir. They have defeated, with British air support, a German counterattack. The Germans are now surrounded on the Attican Peninsula."

To reach Athens and Attican peninsula, they would have to go through Ottoman Balkans. So Ottomans must have lost most of their Balkan portion. Which is a devastating blow.

For Ahmet Muhtar Zogoli,

So, Zog gets to play Skanderbeg. (Or like his SI TL.)

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

So, Zog gets to play Skanderbeg. (Or like his SI TL.)

I believe in the twitch community, this would qualify as a "pog" moment.

 

[Sarthak]

Danubia is divided during the war and Hungary becomes independent and then join this Axis side. (One can also assume that they might have rebelled against the Kingdom of Danubia)

Not telling!

reach Athens and Attican peninsula, they would have to go through Ottoman Balkans. So Ottomans must have lost most of their Balkan portion. Which is a devastating blow.

Not lost, but more like occupied.

, Zog gets to play Skanderbeg. (Or like his SI TL.)

He acts as a guerilla leader in occupied Albania.

I believe in the twitch community, this would qualify as a "pog" moment.

It would.

 

[Lord Khuzdul]

Spoiler: Scene from "The Siege of Athens (1999 Movie)"

Now I can see why Greece and the Ottoman Empire seem to be best friends in the future snips. Not much of an enmity would be left after a bro move like that.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

So Danubia is divided during the war and Hungary becomes independent and then join this Axis side. (One can also assume that they might have rebelled against the Kingdom of Danubia)

Forgot to state on that one...I'm guessing Hungary decided to become the "Government of National Unity" far earlier than they did IOTL.

 

[Pio2013]

I forsee a second and more bloody Thermopylae.

 

[Sarthak]

Now I can see why Greece and the Ottoman Empire seem to be best friends in the future snips. Not much of an enmity would be left after a bro move like that.

pretty much

Forgot to state on that one...I'm guessing Hungary decided to become the "Government of National Unity" far earlier than they did IOTL.

well not really. Hungary's circumstances ittl are verypeculiar that's all I am giving up

I forsee a second and more bloody Thermopylae.

certainly possible