How's the Start?


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The two state solution was only mainstream from 1934. Until then the Indian Muslim league had no presence. The Indian National Congress was King till then.

There was mention of the two state solution.i.e a seperate nation for muslims but this was not the majority opinion.
Not exactly. Before 1934 the two nation theory came to be during ww1 when the discrimination felt by Muslim troops in the Raj from their Hindu counterparts sparked anger. Also the mixing up of Hindu and Muslim rites during battles. The idea was already there the Muslim League simply made it officially their ideology in 1934
 
That definitely is possible. But I would think only in traditional Muslim places like Persia, Afghanistan and Aceh maybe.
If I recall correctly, the Aceh War has been ongoing for years by now, and by 1880, the capital was under foreign occupation and they have to retreat to the interior. I can see Ottoman victory may influence them to fight the Dutch more ferociously tho.
I wonder, will the Ottoman reaffirm the claim of Aceh's vassalage status sometime after this?
 
If I recall correctly, the Aceh War has been ongoing for years by now, and by 1880, the capital was under foreign occupation and they have to retreat to the interior. I can see Ottoman victory may influence them to fight the Dutch more ferociously tho.
I wonder, will the Ottoman reaffirm the claim of Aceh's vassalage status sometime after this?
The war officially ended in 1904, but Wikipedia says there were pockets of resistance that lasted until 1914. That being said, I can't see the Ottomans trying to directly interfere in Indonesia yet, they're too weak for that. Maybe in a decade or two, especially if they stay out of WWI and profit from it while Britain retreats into itself after it and doesn't care that much about the Dutch? Even so, they'd be wary of interference in Aceh because of Singapore.
 
The war officially ended in 1904, but Wikipedia says there were pockets of resistance that lasted until 1914. That being said, I can't see the Ottomans trying to directly interfere in Indonesia yet, they're too weak for that. Maybe in a decade or two, especially if they stay out of WWI and profit from it while Britain retreats into itself after it and doesn't care that much about the Dutch? Even so, they'd be wary of interference in Aceh because of Singapore.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Brits lol.
Well, that means that for the Ottoman interference to happen (if it will happen), the Dutch have to be sufficiently weakened, the Brits have to be convinced that their position in the Malacca Strait is not going to be in danger, and the Ottomans themselves have to successfully influence the Acehnese to revolt against the DEI rule. The former sultanate was never fully pacified and insurgency, albeit limited, persisted in the highlands as you have mentioned. By 1942 there were even revolts led by the ulemas against both the Dutch and Japanese.

So yeah, it'll be really hard I guess.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Brits lol.
Well, that means that for the Ottoman interference to happen (if it will happen), the Dutch have to be sufficiently weakened, the Brits have to be convinced that their position in the Malacca Strait is not going to be in danger, and the Ottomans themselves have to successfully influence the Acehnese to revolt against the DEI rule. The former sultanate was never fully pacified and insurgency, albeit limited, persisted in the highlands as you have mentioned. By 1942 there were even revolts led by the ulemas against both the Dutch and Japanese.

So yeah, it'll be really hard I guess.
I could see a particularly audacious Ottoman entrepreneur smuggle some "humanitarian aid" or stuff like that in an otherwise harmless cargo vessel, but the government itself would likely have to stay put until it's strong enough.
 
Chapter 6: Economics and Diplomatic Intrigue.
Chapter 6: Economics and Diplomatic Intrigue.

***

“The Albanians had formed a core part of the Ottoman Empire ever since it had been conquered by the Turks. The Albanians had contributed more Grand Viziers to the Ottoman Empire than any other region in the empire. As such, the Albanians were pretty well respected in the Empire. However, the attempts at centralization and conscription had made the population restless. However the imposition of the Turkish language as the only language in schools had made the restless population erupt into anger, and riots. And though the victories against Italy, and the fear that Italy may try to invade Albania led to a respite in the riots and protests, as the war swung in favor of the Ottomans, the Albanians turned to rioting and protesting again.


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Albanian protests and riots in Skopje.

As such the lead up to the 1912 Ottoman General Elections in Albania was tense. Basically no one supported the Committee of Union and Progress in Albania, and the CUP deputy candidates were all sidelined in favor of the candidates from the Liberal Union and the Ottoman Democratic Party, both of whom supported the repeal of the previous Turkification laws in the Empire, though they did not support total decentralization. The Albanian viyalets and cantons, voted decisively in favor of the Liberal Union and Ottoman Democratic Party, both of whom had managed to portray themselves as the go to party for Albanians, and the subsequent coalition government between the Ottoman Democratic Party and the Liberal Union had made the situation calm down. However the politicians in power knew that they had to do something about the Albanian question.

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Hasan Prishtina

In May 1912, the Chamber of Deputies officially began debate on the Albanian question, and what would be best suited to end the question once and for all. An Albanian deputy in the Chamber, Hasan Prishtina, put forward a list that he deemed necessary for the continuation of Albania within the Ottoman Empire. This list, called ‘Prishtina’s List’ contained the following points:-

  • The Suspension of studying only Ottoman Turkish in schools in Albania, and instead the inclusion of both Albanian and Ottoman Turkish in schools.
  • Appointment of all governmental officials in Albania to happen only with officials who spoke Albanian.
  • Albanian conscription service to take place only within the 4 Albanian vilayets, other than in times of war.
  • The freedom to establish private schools and societies, as long as they met the government guidelines.
  • The suspension of extra taxes levied in the Albanian vilayets.
These demands thankfully skirted around the idea of a unified Albanian vilayet, which would be unacceptable to the Porte, and instead showed a modicum of compromise. The Social Democratic Party, which supported a unified Albanian vilayet, and the CUP, which did not at all like that its Turkification laws were being repealed, spoke out against this list, calling it a disgrace, and not at all a proper solution to the Albanian question.

Contrary to what was going on in the CUP and the Social Democrats however, the Ottoman Democratic Party, led by Ibrahim Temo, who himself was an ethnic Albanian, and the current Minister of the Interior, supported the list, replying in a letter to his friend:

…….The list manages to seek a compromise between the Albanian demands and the Porte’s own needs. Should the list pass as a bill in the Chamber, I believe that the question of Albania will have been resolved for the future…….

Albanian nationalists however wanted one more thing. They wanted a separate institution to represent them in the government, in the same manner as the Minister-President of Hungary or the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. This however was a problem. The Ottomans could not afford to give something like that to every ethnic group in the empire, and most certainly they could not allow the Albanians to be seen as favored in the empire, which would incite the Greeks, Bulgars, Macedonians and Armenians against the Porte. As such, instead, the Porte came up with the idea of an Albanian Commission, which would be subservient under the Ministry of the Interior. This was a suitable compromise. Finally on June 27th, 1912 the ‘Albanian Bill of 1912’ was passed in the Chamber of Deputies, holding all of the aforementioned points plus the Albanian commission, with the government coalition voting in favor of the bill, and the CUP and Social Democrats, leading the opposition voting against it. With the majority of the chamber voting in favor of the bill, and bill was sent to the Ottoman Senate, which was then ratified as law.


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Ottoman Chamber of Deputies.

The bill went a lot in the way of reforming the empire, and provided a base for the empire to expand upon. Not only that the removal of the Turkification policy in the Albanian vilayets, also gave the Liberal Union and the Ottoman Democratic Party the impetus and platform to repeal the Ottoman Turkish Education Act entirely, and instead replaced it with the New Education Curriculum Act in late 1912 which instead placed the local language in the vilayet together with Ottoman Turkish instead.” A History of Ottoman Albania, University of Tirana, 1988.

“The Ottoman Victory in the Italo-Ottoman War had set off another diplomatic race. Ever since 1902, the Germans and the British, had been engaged in a race for influence in the Ottoman Empire, with the British dominating the Ottoman naval department and the Germans dominating the Ottoman Armed Forces department. The Austrians who were aligned with the Germans, also had their own noticeable presence in Constantinople.

France, had basically given up their influence in the Ottoman Empire when they supported Italy in the Italo-Ottoman War, and the subsequent backlash saw the Ottomans respond harshly, and the French influence in the Sublime Porte had been extremely badly hit, and many French consulates had been shut down by the Ottoman government in reprisal against the French support of the Italians. However despite this, the Ottomans carefully toed the line of the reprisals, keeping in the knowledge that many of their commanders were in France, studying in French military academies, and the fact that France supplied the empire with it’s slowly burgeoning Air corps.


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An Ottoman Poster of the German Mission in the Ottoman Empire.

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The view of Constantinople from the British Embassy in the Ottoman Empire.

Nonetheless, the loss of French influence in the Ottoman Empire created a diplomatic ‘hole’ so to speak. A hole that the Germans, Austrians and the British were eager to fill. Quite fast, the Austrian, the British and the German governments all filed the Sublime Porte for permission to open up new consulates, in place of the older French ones, and quickly enough there was a race for appointment schedules between the Consulates and the new Grand Vizier, and occasionally with the Sultan as well.

Ali Kemal was more than happy to let the Foreign powers become distracted with one another whilst his government reaped the benefits of the foreign investment. His focus currently was on the economy of the Ottoman Empire. Ever since 1908, the Ottoman economy had grown at faster rates, and it was estimated that the Ottoman Public Debt Administration would no longer be needed by 1917 as by that point, the Ottoman debt would have lowered down to normal levels. The Ottoman government who had been hamstrung by the Ottoman Public Debt Administration, too many times to count, was all the more eager to make that date come early.

State sponsored industrialization had led to Egypt becoming a near peer to the European economies under the rule of Muhammad Ali, and whilst that level of economic progress was gone after the economic exploitation of Egypt by Britain and France, in the 1880s, the result had been clear for many Ottoman economists to see. However for a state sponsored economic reform in the country, the empire needed a good banking sector, which the government and the nation was lacking in.


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Muhammad Ali Pasha.

As the Bank of Constantinople was not a capital comprehensive bank, the use of the bank was little in international and global economics, and locally ran banks were more inductive and useful for the Ottoman economy than the so called ‘central bank’ of the Bank of Constantinople. Of course, not having a proper central bank was a detriment to the Ottoman economy. It relied too heavily on the Heckscher-Ohlin economic principle of ‘A capital abundant country will export the capital intensive good, and the labor abundant country will export the labor intensive good.’ Problem was, that the Ohlin Law was widely regarded as an outdated way of thinking, and outdated economic theories being applied, created an economic bubble, which could explode any time the economy started to go wobbly. Which would disastrous for the Ottoman economy. As such, economists in the Ottoman government, aided by foreign supervisors, were alarmed by the overuse of the Heckscher-Ohlin theorem in the Ottoman economy, and the call for banking reform had started in the country.

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Ali Kemal knew better than anyone, having studied economics in his youth, that a proper banking system was required, however such a thing was easier said than done. Liquidated goods would have to be transferred, and temporary loans would have to be procured. This course of action of course threatened to expand the duration of the OPDA by a few months, should it happen. However considering that the Ottoman economy was teetering on the brink of entering an economic bubble, the need for banking reform was getting desperate.

The Ottomans did have a secondary bank, the Ottoman Imperial Bank, however the Ottoman Imperial Bank was under the control of French and British entrepreneurs, and as such was not considered trustworthy and did not have investor confidence.

The ‘Ottoman Banking Legislation’ of late 1912 however proved to be mildly successful, as it managed to get the Ottoman economy out of an incoming economic bubble, however failed to accelerate Ottoman economic growth. Nonetheless, the major points of the Ottoman Banking Legislation were:-


  • The merging of the Bank of Constantinople and the Ottoman Imperial Bank to form the Imperial Bank of Constantinople.
  • The Imperial Bank of Constantinople to serve as the Central Bank of the Ottoman Empire.
  • All 145,000 shares of the Imperial Ottoman Bank and 120,000 shares of the Bank of Constantinople to be transferred to the Imperial Bank of Constantinople.
  • The Imperial Bank of Constantinople would receive a governmental charter regarding their economic duties.
  • The Imperial Bank of Constantinople to function around the topics of:-
    • Monetary Policy: By setting the official interest rate and controlling the money supply.
    • Financial Stability: Acting as a government’s banker and as the banker’s bank.
    • Reserve management: Managing the country’s foreign exchange money reserves, gold reserves and governmental bonds.
    • Banking supervision: Regulating the supervising the commercial banking system of the Ottoman Empire.
    • Payments System: Managing and supervising the means of payment and inter-banking clearing systems.
    • Coins and Notes issuance: The bank would issue all notes and coins in the empire.
    • Other Functions include economic research, statistical collection, supervision of deposit guarantee schemes, and advice in governmental financial policy.
The Imperial Bank of Constantinople would start issuing Lira notes a few weeks after its establishment.” A History of Ottoman Economics, University of Angora, 1995.

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The main building of the Imperial Bank of Constantinople.

“Israel Zangwill was the leader of the Zionist Union after the death of Theodor Herzl in 1904. Coming at the forefront of cultural Zionism, and appreciation of Zionism in Europe and America, the man was an opponent of Theodor Herzl’s views of settling Palestine with Jews whilst remaining under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire. In 1896, Theodor Herzl had managed to worm a meeting with Sultan Abdul Hamid II of the Ottoman Empire, asking permission for an en masse settlement in Palestine on part of Jews in return for them remaining Ottoman citizens, and paying off massive amounts of debts that the Ottoman empire had. Abdul Hamid II, who had been a pan-islamist, and a Sultan who disliked his religious minorities, did not wish to add more to the list, and instead declined the offer. Israel Zangwill had criticized this offer, and called it a disgrace.

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Theodor Herzl

However the Ottoman victory in the Italo-Ottoman War had made Zangwill reconsider his options. Militarily, attacking a strong and rejuvenated Ottoman Empire was something not in the question at all, as such an endeavor would have been political and diplomatic suicide. As it was, the Ottoman government had allowed Jews to settle down in Palestine as long as the migrant numbers coincided with the Arab birth rate in Palestine, this retaining the balance of population. Because of this, Palestine did have a noticeable Zionist population, but the majority remained Arab Muslims, and the Ottoman government, not intent on alienating its Arab population, only maintained the ratio of the Arab to Zionist population in the province, creating an ordered balance. And even then, some anti-semite riots had broken out in Jerusalem, however they were more or less squashed down easily by the Porte.

Zangwill had in 1902 spoken about how Palestine was a ruined and forsaken Turkish territory, however the Ottoman government, already not really interested in Zionist politics, and slightly miffed and angered by the statement started to shut Zangwill out of their diplomatic reach and instead started to speak and meet with Zangwill’s rival Zionist organizations. He quickly backpedalled calling the Ottoman supervision of Palestine and the pro-semite stance taken by the Ottoman government extremely fruitful, as historically the Ottomans had remained a safe haven for fleeing Jews from the European countries. Zangwill had been and would remain a supporter of the Uganda Scheme, however instead of his former careful anti-Ottoman views, the man turned towards careful pro-Ottoman views, and instead did start encouraging the Jews to settle down in the Ottoman Empire, though not specifically Palestine.


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Israel Zangwill.

By the end of 1912, the Ottomans and the Zionist Organizations would start negotiations and talks regarding Zionist immigration to the Ottoman Empire in earnest.” A History of Zionism in the Ottoman Empire, University of Jerusalem, 2008.

***
 
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Deleted member 109224

What do you guys think is the best course of action with the Zionists?

For the Sultan/the Empire, come up with a compromise which leads to Zionist Organizations assisting in improving the empire's fiscal situation. Co-opt Zionism so that the whole of the Ottoman Empire is a Jewish homeland, rather than concentrating the Jews in one province where they can have nationalist aspirations.

The official Jewish organization of the Ottoman Empire (mostly Sephardic, IIRC) pledged at one point to make Turkish the official/predominant language of Ottoman Jewry.

IIRC there was a saying that the only people in Austria who were Austrian were the Jews, everybody else was German, Hungarian, etc - so providing refuge to Jews, making them learn Turkish, and coopting them into being a fiercely loyal pro-Constantinople group throughout the empire could work well for Constantinople. There already were Ottoman Jewish organizations, so propping them up to subsume Zionist ones would probably be good for making sure Zionists complement the status quo rather than challenge it.
 

Horseshoe

Banned
Why are the Ottoman military officers learning in France since I think the Germans were the strongest land power with the most modern army and leadership specially after the diplomatic fallout because of French support for italy
 
For the Sultan/the Empire, come up with a compromise which leads to Zionist Organizations assisting in improving the empire's fiscal situation. Co-opt Zionism so that the whole of the Ottoman Empire is a Jewish homeland, rather than concentrating the Jews in one province where they can have nationalist aspirations.

The official Jewish organization of the Ottoman Empire (mostly Sephardic, IIRC) pledged at one point to make Turkish the official/predominant language of Ottoman Jewry.

IIRC there was a saying that the only people in Austria who were Austrian were the Jews, everybody else was German, Hungarian, etc - so providing refuge to Jews, making them learn Turkish, and coopting them into being a fiercely loyal pro-Constantinople group throughout the empire could work well for Constantinople. There already were Ottoman Jewish organizations, so propping them up to subsume Zionist ones would probably be good for making sure Zionists complement the status quo rather than challenge it.
Indeed I was thinking about dispersing the Jews throughout the empire rather than just one place.
 
Why are the Ottoman military officers learning in France since I think the Germans were the strongest land power with the most modern army and leadership specially after the diplomatic fallout because of French support for italy
Ottomans historically sent most of their commanders in foreign countries to train in France
 
Indeed I was thinking about dispersing the Jews throughout the empire rather than just one place.
Seems sensible enough. That and the Ottomans currently have a very diverse empire and are pretty much defacto guaranteeing the religious rights of their citizens. I can definitely see how the Ottoman administration would highly view wealthy Jews who are willing to learn Turkish...

The problem is if the wider Jewish community would want such a thing. Are they willing to settle for someplace in the Ottoman Empire or Palestine only?
 
The problem is if the wider Jewish community would want such a thing. Are they willing to settle for someplace in the Ottoman Empire or Palestine only?
While I agree that it is reasonable to not let the Jewish immigrants to be concentrated in Palestine, I also wonder about this. Will the quota (I guess) that have been imposed on immigration to Palestine being enforced elsewhere? How about the relationship between these new immigrants from Europe with their long-existing counterparts of Mizrahi Jews in Iraq and Yemen?
 
While I agree that it is reasonable to not let the Jewish immigrants to be concentrated in Palestine, I also wonder about this. Will the quota (I guess) that have been imposed on immigration to Palestine being enforced elsewhere? How about the relationship between these new immigrants from Europe with their long-existing counterparts of Mizrahi Jews in Iraq and Yemen?
Yeah. It would also cause immense issues if the provinces surrounding Palestine were to suddenly receive a massive influx of Jewish immigrants. So, either the Zionist movement works in transit with the Ottoman government to make sure that doesn’t happen or the immigration limit would be expanded to everywhere in the Empire.
 

Deleted member 109224

Seems sensible enough. That and the Ottomans currently have a very diverse empire and are pretty much defacto guaranteeing the religious rights of their citizens. I can definitely see how the Ottoman administration would highly view wealthy Jews who are willing to learn Turkish...

The problem is if the wider Jewish community would want such a thing. Are they willing to settle for someplace in the Ottoman Empire or Palestine only?
A lot of Jews will only want to go to Palestine.

Many other Jews will just want to go to where they can make some good money. That likely means the cities of the Balkans and Anatolia, as that'd be where industrial jobs are.

Cities like Beirut, Damascus, Aleppo, and Baghdad would probably attract people too.
 
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