Orthodox "Vatican City" in Istanbul

Is it possible for a tiny independent city state, controlled by the Orthodox Church, to be created in Istanbul (with the rest of the city under Turkish control)? I'd guess this would require better Greek performance in the Greco-Turkish War, and consequently worse Turkish performance, but I'm still unsure how plausible it is.

Assuming it is created, what would the effects be on Greece, Turkey, and the Orthodox world?
 
No. When the Ottomans conquered Constantinople they converted the Hagia Sophia and many other churches in to mosques. Given the restrictions on "people of the book" compared to Muslims allowing an entity that was "independent" and the center of Orthodox Christianity in Constantinople/Istanbul under the Ottoman Empire is not going to happen.
 
Maybe in a world where the immediate aftermath of the First World War does not go very well for Turkey, but Greece is unable to capitalize on this beyond gaining a bit more of Thrace and perhaps Smyrna, Constantinople just sort of defaults into becoming an independent city-state, and said Orthodox Vatican is established as part of a compromise between the city's Greek and Turkish populations.

So, a city-state within a city-state.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Which orthodoxy do you think of ?

The greek ? the russian ? the serbian ? the armenian ? the bulgarian ? ...

The orthodoxy is far from being such a pyramidal, international, hierarchical structured body as the catholic church is.
It neither has a personal and even less a ... 'local' center comparable to the Pope and Rome.
 
Which orthodoxy do you think of ?

The greek ? the russian ? the serbian ? the armenian ? the bulgarian ? ...

The orthodoxy is far from being such a pyramidal, international, hierarchical structured body as the catholic church is.
It neither has a personal and even less a ... 'local' center comparable to the Pope and Rome.

To be fair Orthodoxy isn't different just because you are x ethnicity...although the Armenians are a different version of Orthodoxy from those local Eastern Orthodox Churches. If Constantinople was to be held as a independent city it would be by the Ecumenical Patriarch whose territory includes all of Anatolia...but then again it wouldn't be independent for long because it would need the protection of another power to ensure that it isn't swamped by vengeful turks
 
The orthodoxy is far from being such a pyramidal, international, hierarchical structured body as the catholic church is.
It neither has a personal and even less a ... 'local' center comparable to the Pope and Rome.
Due to Orthodox Christianity's autonomous structure, the autonomous polity of Mount Athos is pretty close to an actual Orthodox version of the Vatican, precisely because it is not the capital of the whole religion.
 

Deleted member 94680

I'd guess this would require better Greek performance in the Greco-Turkish War, and consequently worse Turkish performance, but I'm still unsure how plausible it is.

Maybe in a world where the immediate aftermath of the First World War does not go very well for Turkey, but Greece is unable to capitalize on this beyond gaining a bit more of Thrace and perhaps Smyrna, Constantinople just sort of defaults into becoming an independent city-state

It would require Greece to do far better than OTL to get anywhere near Constantinople, let alone conquer it to the point of being secure enough to set up an “Orthodox Vatican”.

To “realistically ATL” conquer Constantinople, you’d need the Great Power WAllies to press forward with their plans to dismember the Ottoman Empire. A different response to the Chanak Crisis for example? Even if that happened, I really can’t see the British or French proposing to set this kind of thing up.
 
It needs a pre-1900 POD. It would have to be done by the Ottoman Sultans, for reasons benefiting the Ottoman Sultans. There would be absolutely no reasons for Turkish reformists/ republicans, who were ethnically cleansing Turkey of its Greek and Armenian populations, to do something like this.
 
If the Ottomans are partitioned I could see this happening or them performing worse in the Balkan Wars(one of these happening somewhere between 1900 and 1914). Greece, Bulgaria, Russia, or a mix of the 3 are probably your best bet on doing this. Maybe Russia works more with Bulgaria. Bulgaria keeps the majority of Thrace and also keeps its Greek lands. Greek is given its claims over Anatolia as a way to make them go along with Russian and Bulgarian gains. Due to Britain refusing to accept direct Russian control over the strait and the city of Constantinople both sides come to a compromise. The city is made into a independent city state under the Orthodox patriarch and church. Russia agrees to it because they think a theocratic Orthodox state would support Russia who is the biggest Orthodox power and near reactionary. Pontus and Armenia are made into independent countries out of former ottoman territory while the rest of the empire is divided up by European powers(imagine allies originally plan for the Ottomans after WW1). This prevents any Turkish state from ever taking back the city. The Orthodox city state probably follows the example of some of the Orthodox nations in the Balkans and force out almost all of its Muslim population. This might be counteracted by British and maybe even Bulgaria treaty agreements that guarantee the protection of these people. But even then the Muslim population could still drop greatly. I doubt they would tolerate living under a theocratic Christian city state who likely treats them poorly. The city state could be a mix of Greeks, Russians, Bulgarians, and other Slavs. Best case for Muslims is a situation similar to otl Bulgaria were they are somewhat tolerated due to them still being a large minority even after being pressured to leave. The city state under the Orthodox Church is likely divided politically between supporting Russia, Bulgaria, or Greece. Maybe it becomes the Geneva of Eastern Europe. Serbia, Russia, Greece, Romania, Pontus, and Armenia use the city as neutral ground for diplomacy. Eastern Europe was a lot more reactionary or to use a nicer word traditional before communism so I don’t think some of this is too much of a stretch. The only issue is Western Europe not accepting this.

A second option but unlikely one I think could be interesting is a more successful and powerful Italian nation taking the city. Maybe Italy becomes more involved and is able to prove themselves as a major power in the Balkan Wars or WW1. Britain allows Italy to take the city due to them not fearing the Italians and just to screw over Russia. Britain in this pod doesn’t think a independent city will last and don’t think the Greeks are strong enough to take it or hold it. Britain also sees this as a good way to make the Italians more friendly with them and hoping it pulls Italy away from its German leaning. The ironic impact of this might be Britain unintentionally worsening their relations with France who might support the Russians and get upset over Britain helping strengthen a possible French enemy and German ally which could lead to Britain becoming more favorable towards the central powers. I imagine Italy taking Constantinople would probably be considered the greatest national victory since unification which could have a big impact of public mindsets in the country. But I could see a Italian controlled Constantinople trying to unite both churches as a propaganda symbol and statement. If the Italians come to a agreement with the Catholic Church similar to the one in otl I could see a similar agreement being made with the Orthodox Church who is now officially united with the western church but in practice functions much the same as before. Maybe something similar to Eastern Catholics in Austria-Hungary is encouraged by the Italians. The Eastern Church still believes in the same stuff, has the same structure, and ceremonies are unchanged but the only difference is now they are in communion with the western church and self identification is different. This is only recognized among Catholics, Greeks, and Orthodox Albanians. Maybe even Romanians even come around to recognizing it. Orthodox Slavs consider the unification as illegitimate and don’t recognized it but that is unimportant if those nations still eventually fall to communism. Like the other pod Italy probably becomes closer to Greece in this pod and helps them take their claims over Anatolia and maybe helps push for a independent Pontus so the Greeks look the other way about Italian rule over certain Greek claims. But this process slowly makes Greece more dependent on Italy to the point of becoming a near client or puppet state. Same goes for Pontus who has to deal with a large discriminated Turkish population in it. Britain supports Italy in the region seeing them as a counterbalance to Russian influence in the region.
 
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