Orthodox Turkish Byzantium?

Hrm, is this a possibility? I'd like to hear Abdul Hadi Pasha's opinion on that one. I would imagine it happening perhaps after the Battle of Manzikert? Maybe more Turks convert to Orthodoxy than in the OTL, and then later one of the major tribal leaders, or even a Christian Seljuk (of Rum) Monarch marries into the ruling family in Constantinople and then inherits the throne somehow?

What effects would this have on Turkish and Greek culture? What effects would it have on the Orthodox Church? Would the Turks likely just adopt standard Greek Orthodoxy, or would they have their own unique variation like many other cultures did? And what would be the greater effect on the Empire in general? Would it be stronger and more long last, as I figured? Or would this...somehow...cause it to fall even faster?

The exact POD I suppose is the most important thing. I'd prefer for the conversion/merger to happen as early as it can, preferably though after Manzikert and the civil war, and the Turkish migration to central Anatolia.
 
It wouldn't be the first time someone of a tribal backround got to the throne that way. I suspect it wouldn't have too much impact on the Byzantine ruling class, but it might have a major effect on the military structure of the empire.

You'd have to go earlier than Manzikert - by then the Turks were Muslim.

Hrm, is this a possibility? I'd like to hear Abdul Hadi Pasha's opinion on that one. I would imagine it happening perhaps after the Battle of Manzikert? Maybe more Turks convert to Orthodoxy than in the OTL, and then later one of the major tribal leaders, or even a Christian Seljuk (of Rum) Monarch marries into the ruling family in Constantinople and then inherits the throne somehow?

What effects would this have on Turkish and Greek culture? What effects would it have on the Orthodox Church? Would the Turks likely just adopt standard Greek Orthodoxy, or would they have their own unique variation like many other cultures did? And what would be the greater effect on the Empire in general? Would it be stronger and more long last, as I figured? Or would this...somehow...cause it to fall even faster?

The exact POD I suppose is the most important thing. I'd prefer for the conversion/merger to happen as early as it can, preferably though after Manzikert and the civil war, and the Turkish migration to central Anatolia.
 
How much earlier though?

Well, you'd need a POD that results in a major invasion of a non-Muslim Turkic people of one of Byzantium's core territories.

And such an invasion actually happened in OTL, by the way; the Bulgars were still a Turkic people when they invaded the Balkans.

But it'll be pretty hard to create a scenario with a non-Muslim Turkic invasion via Persia and Armenia without using a "no Islam" scenario.
 
Last edited:
A no Islam timeline more or less defeats the purpose of the concept, as does an alternate Turkish invasion, as I specifically meant the Seljuk-descended Turks. I thought Abdul said in another thread here that about 15% of the Turks in Anatolia converted to Christianity after their initial invasion? Would it be impossible for a significantly larger number of them to in this timeline?
 
A no Islam timeline more or less defeats the purpose of the concept, as does an alternate Turkish invasion, as I specifically meant the Seljuk-descended Turks. I thought Abdul said in another thread here that about 15% of the Turks in Anatolia converted to Christianity after their initial invasion? Would it be impossible for a significantly larger number of them to in this timeline?

Were those converts still-pagan Turks who converted, or Muslim Turks? Because AFAIK Islam does not allow conversion, so it might have been the former.

But certainly not ALL of the Turks in central Asia were Muslim in the early 11th century. There were probably some Tengriists, Nestorians, etc. So just have a different person besides Seljuk (or maybe he converts to Christianity) who converts to Orthodoxy and leads an invasion against Islam in the name of Orthodox Christianity. He eventually conquers his way to Anatolia, captures Constantinople somehow, and crowns himself Emperor.

Would this mean less or more Turkish settlement in Anatolia? And the newly-conquered Turkic lands united to the Byzantines. I know it would be impossible to hold all that land, but might the Byzantines try?
 
But certainly not ALL of the Turks in central Asia were Muslim in the early 11th century. There were probably some Tengriists, Nestorians, etc. So just have a different person besides Seljuk (or maybe he converts to Christianity) who converts to Orthodoxy and leads an invasion against Islam in the name of Orthodox Christianity. He eventually conquers his way to Anatolia, captures Constantinople somehow, and crowns himself Emperor.

Probably more...

They might be barbarian Turks, but they would be barbarian Turks of the Right Religion(TM)... ;)

Would this mean less or more Turkish settlement in Anatolia? And the newly-conquered Turkic lands united to the Byzantines. I know it would be impossible to hold all that land, but might the Byzantines try?

Split it between heirs? :confused:

Finally, the best solution to Byzanto-Turkic relations... :D

Now we only need an *Osman to found a dynasty, and it can be the Byzanto-Ottoman Empire... :D:D:D:D
 
In this scenario there is no Manzikert... Christian tribes coming towards Byzantium and Byzantines are welcoming them them since they share the same faith... A marriage alliance maybe? Isaurians and Alans are perfect examples...
 
In this scenario there is no Manzikert... Christian tribes coming towards Byzantium and Byzantines are welcoming them them since they share the same faith... A marriage alliance maybe? Isaurians and Alans are perfect examples...

Hmm... you're right.. so there would be no (or at least less) wars and raids that partially depopulated Anatolia. So there would not be a great deal of land for the Turks to settle in. And they would be on friendly terms with the Byzantines, or at least neutral terms... so they probably would settle peacefully and some would intermarry into the Byzantine royal families.
 
Were those converts still-pagan Turks who converted, or Muslim Turks? Because AFAIK Islam does not allow conversion, so it might have been the former.

Just because a religion doesn't allow conversion doesn't mean that (some of) its adherants won't convert.

The Seljuk Turks who invaded Anatolia and the neighbouring regions had all been converted to Islam, even though they weren't the strictest of Muslims (I can name several cases of Seljuk Turkish chieftans and even princes and sultans that had a penchant for excessive drinking, and there's even a few cases of Seljuk Turkish princes that married their daughters to Christian Armenian and Georgian princes. There's even the case of the Georgian queen Rusudan, who married a Seljuk prince who converted to Christianity upon his marriage).

Furthermore, the Seljuks had initially conquered all of Anatolia, including even the far west (the first capital of the Rum Sultanate was in fact Nicaea), and various nomadic Turkish tribes settled in western Anatolia.

But thanks to the Comnenian Restoration and the Crusaders, the Byzantines managed to reconquer about a third of Anatolia, and the Turkish tribes in the reconquered territories were (IIRC) given the choice of expulsion, conversion, or death.

And there's always people who prefer changing their faith over death or becoming a refugee.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
But thanks to the Comnenian Restoration and the Crusaders, the Byzantines managed to reconquer about a third of Anatolia, and the Turkish tribes in the reconquered territories were (IIRC) given the choice of expulsion, conversion, or death.

And there's always people who prefer changing their faith over death or becoming a refugee.
An Orthodox Anatolian Turkic people might be something like the Karamanlılar.
 
I thought that perhaps the Turks could invade Anatolia after Manzikert as in the OTL, but this time they manage to retain all of their Anatolian conquests as either the Emperor in Constantinople doesn't call for help from the west, or they do not answer him when he does. But because they hold so many more Christian subjects within their state, far more Seljuk Turks of Rum convert to Christianity than in the OTL.
 
It wouldn't be the first time someone of a tribal backround got to the throne that way. I suspect it wouldn't have too much impact on the Byzantine ruling class, but it might have a major effect on the military structure of the empire.

You'd have to go earlier than Manzikert - by then the Turks were Muslim.
And none would be willing to switch faiths for political advantage?

I freely admit this would have to happen after the Seljiuks fell apart, perhaps if the Komnenoi formented the further fragmentation....

HTG
 
Top