Orleanist France vs Bonapartiste France

[Kaiser Tito]

What would be the major differences between an Orleanist France and a Bonapartiste France. Both are more liberal alternatives to the legalist succession, with the Orleans having conservative middle-class support while the Bonapartes had revolutionary populism. Assuming both dynasties are able to last up to the mid-20th century, how would the Orleans handle the unifications of Italy and Germany, and how would they both handle the overseas colonies, the rise of communism and fascism, and the world wars?

 

[Kaiser Tito]

So they'd both be exactly the same? Even if both monarchies become figureheads I'm sure that the alternate Frances would have some differences between each other.

 

[Osman Aga]

I somehow think Bonapartist France seem more likely looking for expansion within Europe while Orleanist France is more or less content with What they already have, though if there is an opportunity to annex Luxemburg and (part of) Belgium then they wouldn't miss it. Less likely to pursue though.

 

[Kaiser Tito]

I somehow think Bonapartist France seem more likely looking for expansion within Europe while Orleanist France is more or less content with What they already have, though if there is an opportunity to annex Luxemburg and (part of) Belgium then they wouldn't miss it. Less likely to pursue though.

Would the differing origins of the respective dynasties influence internal politics in anyway or would political trends of the populace be completely independent of the monarchy?

 

[Osman Aga]

Would the differing origins of the respective dynasties influence internal politics in anyway or would political trends of the populace be completely independent of the monarchy?

France would not be an absolute monarchy anymore so the general trends of the populace would decide. The monarchy could influence a few things, but nothing too large.

 

[oca2073]

Assuming both dynasties are able to last up to the mid-20th century, how would the Orleans handle the unifications of Italy and Germany, and how would they both handle the overseas colonies, the rise of communism and fascism, and the world wars?

In his seminal book Peasants into Frenchmen (1976), historian Eugen Weber traced the modernization of French villages and argued that rural France went from backward and isolated to modern with a sense of national identity during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.[26] He emphasized the roles of railroads, republican schools, and universal military conscription. He based his findings on school records, migration patterns, military service documents and economic trends. Weber argued that until 1900 or so a sense of French nationhood was weak in the provinces. Weber then looked at how the policies of the Third Republic created a sense of French nationality in rural areas.

It is debatable that a continuation of monarchy in France means 1) weaker national identity/stronger regional identities, 2) weaker military due to inability to implement universal conscription due to fear of revolution (relying only on professional troops/mercenaries), 3) slower modernization of the rural countryside. All this may mean a weaker France less capable of responding to crises than OTL. After all, Napoleon III's regime was corrupt and inept militarily and they lost easily to just Prussia. While the 3rd Republic managed to repel a united Germany (with only a little help from Britain) in 1914 and stayed in the war for FOUR YEARS despite losing 1.3 million men and 1.7 million ppl overall and their northern industrialized heartland occupied and turned into a wasteland. Add not having Alsace-Lorraine and its industrial resources.

I'm not sure a Monarchical France would be able to inspire that level of commitment and resistance. Probably, they would be overthrown (like in Russia) and political instability would cause France to exit the war very quickly.

 

[funnyhat]

I somehow think Bonapartist France seem more likely looking for expansion within Europe while Orleanist France is more or less content with What they already have, though if there is an opportunity to annex Luxemburg and (part of) Belgium then they wouldn't miss it. Less likely to pursue though.

Probably true, because the Bonapartes felt that they needed to justify their thrones with conquest. The house of Orléans did not feel quite the same need as they were descendants of Louis XIII.

 

[Circonflexe]

I would advise you to look into René Rémond's classic book about the right-wing in France, which he divides in three streams: Légitimist (traditional land-owning aristocracy, in full retreat by 1850), Orléanist (the Parisian bourgeoisie and industrialists), and Bonapartists (which differ from the two others mainly by their direct appeal to the people vs. “the elites”). International policy remains broadly the same across all streams (that's also a constant in France until right now); having Bonaparte as a family name does not mean one is going to invade Russia or anything. Of course during the 1850s and 1860s, industrialization is so successful that the bourgeoisie will generally support any half-competent government.

 

[Kaiser Tito]

I would advise you to look into René Rémond's classic book about the right-wing in France, which he divides in three streams: Légitimist (traditional land-owning aristocracy, in full retreat by 1850), Orléanist (the Parisian bourgeoisie and industrialists), and Bonapartists (which differ from the two others mainly by their direct appeal to the people vs. “the elites”). International policy remains broadly the same across all streams (that's also a constant in France until right now); having Bonaparte as a family name does not mean one is going to invade Russia or anything. Of course during the 1850s and 1860s, industrialization is so successful that the bourgeoisie will generally support any half-competent government.

While informative I meant if either the July Monarchy or the Second French Empire survived so I don't think they were tied to fascism quite yet, though it's completely possible for a descendent to support a monarcho-fascist group when the time comes.

 

[Circonflexe]

While informative I meant if either the July Monarchy or the Second French Empire survived so I don't think they were tied to fascism quite yet, though it's completely possible for a descendent to support a monarcho-fascist group when the time comes.

Where in my comment did I write about any ties to fascism?!

 

[Socrates]

Bonapartism is simply Gaullism, with the French state playing a leading role in the economy and seeking French grandeur in foreign relations. Orleanism is much more "British" to me. Laissez Faire in economics and prioritizing trade internationally.

 

[Kaiser Tito]

Where in my comment did I write about any ties to fascism?!

You were referencing right wing france which typically refers to fascist movements though if you were referring to 19th century France instead of the 20th century than I misunderstood you.

 

[Circonflexe]

You were referencing right wing france which typically refers to fascist movements though if you were referring to 19th century France instead of the 20th century than I misunderstood you.

Even in the 20th century, right-wing France barely ever had a proper fascist movement (that would be the PPF of Doriot, 1936-war). Fascism is not a typical element of French right-wing thought, which generally gravitated around clericalism, laissez-faire economics, and (slightly less so) monarchism.