Origins of the Albanians and the Illyrian hypothesis

From what research I've been getting, the origins of the Albanian language are pretty mysterious and underresearched. It mostly states that Albanian could be descendant of Illyrian or Thracian. I think that this is possible, since there is linguistic evidence of Albanian loan-words from Doric Greek (Pre-Byzantine) and Archaic Latin.

Is Albanian actually Illyrian? Or perhaps is it a combination of Thracian and Illyrian, with even some Pannonian roots?
 
I am quite interested in this thread. One thing that should be noted is what is the relationship of the pre Greek inhabitants of Greece and the Illyrians and then as well with the cultures of Pala, Hatti, Minoa, Kaska, Troy, etc... This could have a relationship to the linguistic and ethnic situations in Albania.
 
Do it really matter, it's clear that Albanians have lived in the region since for ever, but they could just as well descendent from some other unknown Indo-European group in the region. But it seems clear that the proto-Albanians likely arrived with the first Indo-European settlers in the region.
 
I am quite interested in this thread. One thing that should be noted is what is the relationship of the pre Greek inhabitants of Greece and the Illyrians and then as well with the cultures of Pala, Hatti, Minoa, Kaska, Troy, etc... This could have a relationship to the linguistic and ethnic situations in Albania.
From what I've and researched and read, the Ancient Greeks established their colonies and cities in the coastline, while the Illyrians tended to be in the interior mountains and rural areas.

Therefore, I think there was very much a lot of trade in the 400-158 BC period. Illyrian tribes could have been trading partners with the Greek colonies.

Illyrians

But the thing I have with this map is the idea that the far south of Albania was with Greek tribes. Could this be true? I mean, my origins are linked to the region called ''Chaonia'' in the map, and the only Greek populations I've noticed in Albania hug the southern coastline around Himara (Kemara), they never lived in the interior mountains. Himara itself is bilingual, with a large Greek community. Something that I assume is that something about Albania during the migration period, since pressure exerted by Slavic and Germanic invaders could've pushed these Illyrian tribes south Epirus or towards the coastal cities, which would explain the Cham Albanian people in the far south in Epirus.

[/QUOTE]Do it really matter, it's clear that Albanians have lived in the region since for ever, but they could just as well descendent from some other unknown Indo-European group in the region. But it seems clear that the proto-Albanians likely arrived with the first Indo-European settlers in the region.[/QUOTE]

The issue isn't whether they are Indo-European or if they are descendants of Indo-Europeans, the issue is that records of Albania from around from the Roman conquest to the Principality of Arabanon are NONEXISTANCT. Seriously, almost nothing exists about it, we can only assume what happened during that period.
 
The issue isn't whether they are Indo-European or if they are descendants of Indo-Europeans, the issue is that records of Albania from around from the Roman conquest to the Principality of Arabanon are NONEXISTANCT. Seriously, almost nothing exists about it, we can only assume what happened during that period.

The problem are that there may be records, but the Albanians almost with 100 certainty didn't use the same name then. Maybe they was Illyrians or Thracians, but they could also be Dacians or Phrygians force settled in the region (I don't believe so). We're never going to prove their exact heritage, and as there's no other who have a better claim on the Illyrian heritage and we know they have lived there before everybody in the region but the Greeks, let's accept their claim.
 
We don't know that they lived there before everyone but the Greeks. We know that they appeared on the history scene somewhere in the 11th century and that they are recorded as a seperate people and not some unromanized or unhellenized autochthonous Illyrian tribe.
Most historical records show that the Illyrian tribes were either romanized (Dalmatia) or hellenized (Epirus Nova).

The hypothesis that the Albanians in general are of Illyrian descent is pretty week and here are a few reasons why:
  • The territory of modern Albania wasn't exactly a backwater area during antiquity. You have Dyrrachium that is a very busy port and the Via Egnatia road. Most of the traffic from nearby Macedonia/Greece that went west passed through this area. It is very unlikely that the Illyrians in this area would have been able to resist hellenization. And yet the amount of greek loan words in Albanian is very low for a people that presumably lived next to the Greeks since early antiquity.
  • The theory that the Illyrians were able to preserve their language in Albania due to the mountainous terrain is ridiculous. Albania is relatively flat compared to other areas that were inhabited by Illyrians (like Dalmatia) and they were unable to resist romanization/hellenization and later on slavization.
  • Marine words in Albanian are mostly loan words. This could suggests that they didn't live originally on the coast but came from somewere more inland. Illyrians on the other hand were known pirates in antiquity. Their pirating provoked Rome into conquering them
I'm not saying that it is impossible for the Albanians to be descended from Illyrians, but I feel it is highly unlikely. We will probably never know their true origin.
 

SRBO

Banned
They are a little Illyrian yes, but i thin they are a non-indo-european people that settled in the area during Byzantine rule and their language got completely taken over. Kind of like the Bulgarians
 
They are a little Illyrian yes, but i thin they are a non-indo-european people that settled in the area during Byzantine rule and their language got completely taken over. Kind of like the Bulgarians
We don't know that they lived there before everyone but the Greeks. We know that they appeared on the history scene somewhere in the 11th century and that they are recorded as a seperate people and not some unromanized or unhellenized autochthonous Illyrian tribe.
Most historical records show that the Illyrian tribes were either romanized (Dalmatia) or hellenized (Epirus Nova).

The hypothesis that the Albanians in general are of Illyrian descent is pretty week and here are a few reasons why:
  • The territory of modern Albania wasn't exactly a backwater area during antiquity. You have Dyrrachium that is a very busy port and the Via Egnatia road. Most of the traffic from nearby Macedonia/Greece that went west passed through this area. It is very unlikely that the Illyrians in this area would have been able to resist hellenization. And yet the amount of greek loan words in Albanian is very low for a people that presumably lived next to the Greeks since early antiquity.
  • The theory that the Illyrians were able to preserve their language in Albania due to the mountainous terrain is ridiculous. Albania is relatively flat compared to other areas that were inhabited by Illyrians (like Dalmatia) and they were unable to resist romanization/hellenization and later on slavization.
  • Marine words in Albanian are mostly loan words. This could suggests that they didn't live originally on the coast but came from somewere more inland. Illyrians on the other hand were known pirates in antiquity. Their pirating provoked Rome into conquering them
I'm not saying that it is impossible for the Albanians to be descended from Illyrians, but I feel it is highly unlikely. We will probably never know their true origin.

There was a heavy amount of borrowing in Albanian of surrounding languages, as I wrote before, they even borrowed some words from Doric Greek. As for Latin words, there was apparently three 'layers' of borrowing, with it ending during the late Empire and Slavic invasions.

Albania has a very distinct geography for a place the size of Maryland. The north is VERY mountainous, comparable to the Alps; meanwhile, the center and coastal areas are plains. As for your comment about Dalmatia, the reason why the Illyrians were assimilated was that they were attacked in a series of waves during the barbarian invasions. First by the Huns, then the Goths, then by the Slavs, and finally the Avars. Of course you would not see any Illyrians remain in a place that was attacked several times. That's why the Illyrians fled to the coastal cities, where they were relatively safe.

Let's not forget that not all the Illyrians were pirates, most of them were herders who lived in mountainous regions. Sure, the coastal tribes would heavily borrow from the Romans and Greeks, but they were eventually assimilated. However, its harder to control the mountainous regions of your empire, that's why the Basques were never assimilated.
 
As for your comment about Dalmatia, the reason why the Illyrians were assimilated was that they were attacked in a series of waves during the barbarian invasions. First by the Huns, then the Goths, then by the Slavs, and finally the Avars. Of course you would not see any Illyrians remain in a place that was attacked several times. That's why the Illyrians fled to the coastal cities, where they were relatively safe
The Illyrians (and Liburnians) in Dalmatia were romanized before the barbaric invasions. The were romanized on the coast and inland. We have records of this. Even after all those barbaric invasions, we still have records from the early middle ages up to the Ottoman conquests of autochthonous people speaking a Romance language in the hinterland. The Croats, Serbs, Bosnians..etc. recorded them as Vlachs (a common slavic term for romance speakers) and they were considered descended from Illyrians/Romans. There are no records of anybody speaking anything similar to Albanian in that region. And we are talking about a very rough region (Dinaric Alps) that is perfect for hiding away from external influences. Now how is it possible that these people in the middle of nowhere in rough terrain were romanized while the Illyrians of former Epirus Nova, through which went one of the busiest roads in the empire, that connects large greek urban centers with one of the busiest ports of the Adriatic (Dyrrachium was btw a Greek inhabited city like many others in the region), are able to resist hellenization and preserve their original language (even though records say that the local Illyrians were fully hellenized). I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I believe that the chances are slim.
Personally I find the various Dacian or Thracian hypothesizes more plausible, but who knows.
 
The Illyrians (and Liburnians) in Dalmatia were romanized before the barbaric invasions. The were romanized on the coast and inland. We have records of this. Even after all those barbaric invasions, we still have records from the early middle ages up to the Ottoman conquests of autochthonous people speaking a Romance language in the hinterland. The Croats, Serbs, Bosnians..etc. recorded them as Vlachs (a common slavic term for romance speakers) and they were considered descended from Illyrians/Romans. There are no records of anybody speaking anything similar to Albanian in that region. And we are talking about a very rough region (Dinaric Alps) that is perfect for hiding away from external influences. Now how is it possible that these people in the middle of nowhere in rough terrain were romanized while the Illyrians of former Epirus Nova, through which went one of the busiest roads in the empire, that connects large greek urban centers with one of the busiest ports of the Adriatic (Dyrrachium was btw a Greek inhabited city like many others in the region), are able to resist hellenization and preserve their original language (even though records say that the local Illyrians were fully hellenized). I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I believe that the chances are slim.
Personally I find the various Dacian or Thracian hypothesizes more plausible, but who knows.
Touche, I was assuming the Dacian/Thracian thing too.
 
The problem are that there may be records, but the Albanians almost with 100 certainty didn't use the same name then. Maybe they was Illyrians or Thracians, but they could also be Dacians or Phrygians force settled in the region (I don't believe so). We're never going to prove their exact heritage, and as there's no other who have a better claim on the Illyrian heritage and we know they have lived there before everybody in the region but the Greeks, let's accept their claim.
The Albanians don't use this name even today. They call themselves Shqiptar.
 
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