Oranges, Coks and Lobsters - A Peninsular War TL idea.

Well I have come to a book about the Portuguese Army in the Napoleonic Wars and a idea came to my mind and....

YOU BLOODY TRAITOR!! Can't writhe for An Age of Iron and Rust because of tests, wasn't it?

This is an idea for after I finish that part of my Roma Invicta Series.

I will bite, you, if you don't keep your word on that.

May I explain the idea please?

Yes, but you better don't leave your current TL unfinished or....

So after this little part the POD is like this.

Count de Lippe was the commander of the Portuguese army during the Seven years war and he...


SEVEN YEARS WAR!!! You said it was a Napoleonic TL.

May I bloody finish the POD?

Ok.

As I was saying de Lippe reformed the army but made two mistake. First thought that the Portuguese army would keep the same discipline standards after he left the country (not much I can do about that I am afraid) and second he dissolved the, I can't the bloody name, government agency in charge of keeping the army bureaucracy and supplies/pay, leaving the regimental commander to take care of that, ignoring the centuries old portuguese tradition of corruption.

So initial POD is that he leaves the army supplies in the hands of government (lowering corruption) and then the other POD is that the reforms that count der Goltz, another Prussian in charge of the Portuguese army in 1800, are approved (in OTL because of opposition from portuguese generals the count got angry and left instead of forcing the aproval). And the last POD is that Junot isn't appointed ambassador (in our TL he was able to convince the Prince reagent to cut military funds, using the "a neutral power doesn't needs a big army, so you should cut in the funds, and the did you noticed the amount of money you can save that way?").[EDIT] Forgot to add the fourth POD, the secretary of war and foreign affairs, passed a law in 1793 that would improve the army officer ranks, by a reward/promotion system based on merit and ability (in OTL it would be revoked on 1797 by the Marquis of Alorna (have to check that part, I don't have the book with me)), by a law that forced the nobility to serve as army officers, this made the former professional officer corp to disappear and would be replaced by the aristocracy), and the POD is that the law is keep, instead of being revoked in 1797.


The POD's might not look like much but they will seriously improve the fighting ability of the Portuguese army, putting the paper 82000 strong army in a fighting strength of some 60 thousand men which will be important for the actual war (I am not including the ordenanças and the militias in this. The number was taken from the total paper strength of the units after the October 1807 reforms, that were basically the same as der Goltz, approved one month before the invasion).

So any thoughts? Do you think this is a good idea? Any problem with plausibility?

Comments are appreciated.

P.S. The name of the possible TL is based on The War of the Oranges, Wellington calling the Portuguese troops the Fighting Coks, and the redcoats being called Lobsters by the men of the Royal Navy.
 
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It appears I forgot about the fifth POD and instead of editing, again, I will do the shameless thing and add another post to bump back on top.

So Portugal still backs off during the war of oranges, by comiting to its policy of neutrality at all cost. This gives time for der Goltz to fully implement its reforms and in 1806 is contract is expanded by another 6 year, with the rank of Marshal and being appointed of all army forces in Portugal.

So some time around 1806 the ultimate to close all ports to the British is given to the goverment.

With the arny now over the experience of the roussillon campaign, where despite their bravery several spanish blunders ended with the surrender of the 1° Porto regiment and with outer being routed, der Goltz, determined to have Portugal join Prussia against Napoleon orders the mobilization of the 3 lines of the army (regulars, militias and ordenanças), forcing the prince regent to refuse and to join the 4° Coalition. The British quicky promise funds and a expeditionary force to aid the Portuguese under the command of John Moore, with the upstart Arthur Wellesley as his second in command.

The Portuguese army under der Goltz, Miguel Forjaz and the other Portuguese and foreign generals, is able to defeat the Spanish army in several defensive battles, making Napoleon very disappointed with his Spanish allies and decides they need a new ruler.

Prussi is still defeated, but not crushed, they lose their lands on the Rhine, but keep their polish territories. Russia is convinced to make peace and the Spanish ulcera begins.
 
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177 views and no thoughts?

Karolus Rex is sad :(

He looks more like he`s annoyed to me.

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So this begs the ultimate question, how is Portugal to develop better with a stronger army to resist the French?

Well militarily the battle will develop, not in the interior of the country like I'm OTL but, in the border areas. This will be important because the southern border is heavily fortified and the north is a hard place for an army, because of mountains, dense forests and lack of roads suited for artillery.

Economically, Portugal avoids the destruction caused by the French invasions and the scorched earth policy implemented in 1810, design to bleed Massena. Destruction will occur but unless Napoleon brings his army against Portugal, which I think unlucky because he had to keep an eye in northern Europe, the Anglo-Portuguese force will be, like in OTL, fighting against Napoleon's marshals and their forces will be much like ones in OTL.

But the most important aspect is political. If a small nation like Portugal dares to face Napoleon, and manage to defeat the French-Spanish forces, this could be used by the British as a major propaganda toll and with Napoleon acting as he usually did (breaking treaties, insulting foreign dignitaries, etc...), not even Talleyrand will be able to use diplomacy to keep, French enemies from uniting. This will result in a break between them earlier than in OTL, so he won't be there to negotiate the end of the War of the Fourth Coalition. On another side a stronger army also avoids that Portugal becomes a British protectorate and with von der Goltz becoming an hero, in the eyes of the Portuguese, we could see a close relationship between Portugal and Prussia.
 
Is this von der Goltz related to the one who would famously serve in the Ottoman Empire?

I honestly don't know if this von der Goltz (Karl-Alexander von der Goltz) was related to Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz, because I am having trouble trying to find any evidence that he had children.
 
Well that's good, avoiding the British protectorate and the penetration of the polarizing aspects of Liberalism brought in by Nappy would avoid the irreversible decline that Portugal suffered from (of which the Portuguese sad to say have yet to recover from).

Though that also brings up the question, what becomes of Brazil? With a stronger Portugal, it means that Brazil remains a colony, or becomes the target of the independentist movement that as your scenario goes, will ultimately still happen for the Spanish colonies?
 
(of which the Portuguese sad to say have yet to recover from).

So true.

Well that's good, avoiding the British protectorate and the penetration of the polarizing aspects of Liberalism brought in by Nappy would avoid the irreversible decline that Portugal suffered from

Portugal will still develop a Liberalist party, Partido Liberal, made of several military leaders (can't name them for obvious reasons) that will help in a peaceful transition to a Constitutional Monarchy government and the creation of the two houses of parliament.

Though that also brings up the question, what becomes of Brazil? With a stronger Portugal, it means that Brazil remains a colony, or becomes the target of the independentist movement that as your scenario goes, will ultimately still happen for the Spanish colonies?

I forgot to mention my plans on this. Basically the royal family does a 1807 (the possibility of defeat in the Peninsula is possible and they have to avoid the dangerous scenario of capture) and goes way, but the Prince reagent goes to the Azores (A place known to oppose invasions from Portugal's enemies, unlike a certain other archipelago), while the rest of the family goes to Brazil. This time the prince doesn't goes to the colonies but stayed in an integral part of the Kingdom of Portugal, delivering another political blow to Napoleon.

Now, because the royal family can't go to "colonies", Brazil is promoted to Kingdom forming the historical United Kingdom Of Portugal, Brazil and The Algarves, with the crown Prince receiving the title of Prince of Brazil (copying the brits). Obviously over time Brazil will develop a independence movement, but a Commonwealth stile of relationship will be formed between the two countries.
 
Portugal will still develop a Liberalist party, Partido Liberal, made of several military leaders (can't name them for obvious reasons) that will help in a peaceful transition to a Constitutional Monarchy government and the creation of the two houses of parliament.

Never said Liberalism was bad, just that it became poisionous to Portugal (and indeed so for Spain) when it was too polarizing.

I forgot to mention my plans on this. Basically the royal family does a 1807 (the possibility of defeat in the Peninsula is possible and they have to avoid the dangerous scenario of capture) and goes way, but the Prince reagent goes to the Azores (A place known to oppose invasions from Portugal's enemies, unlike a certain other archipelago), while the rest of the family goes to Brazil. This time the prince doesn't goes to the colonies but stayed in an integral part of the Kingdom of Portugal, delivering another political blow to Napoleon.

Now, because the royal family can't go to "colonies", Brazil is promoted to Kingdom forming the historical United Kingdom Of Portugal, Brazil and The Algarves, with the crown Prince receiving the title of Prince of Brazil (copying the brits). Obviously over time Brazil will develop a independence movement, but a Commonwealth stile of relationship will be formed between the two countries.

If you remember my AHC I had just posted not long ago...I think that you might've won you the challenge if it pans out.
 
Never said Liberalism was bad, just that it became poisionous to Portugal (and indeed so for Spain) when it was too polarizing.

I think I expressed myself badly on that point. What I ment was that the PL (Liberal Party) will develop but they will go on steps to implement liberalism, insted of just dropping it like a bomb. So it's like you said, it won't become a poison.

If you remember my AHC I had just posted not long ago...I think that you might've won you the challenge if it pans out.

Yes I Won!!!! :D
 
Now that you have a basic inside on the TL, I must ask the ultimate questions.

Do you think that the TL is plausible? Take in mind that this ain't a Wank, but a Portugal doesn't screw up at every possible option TL.

Would you be interested in reading the TL?

And, is the idea original?

P.S. the draft name Oranges, Coks and Lobsters will not be used, I came up with a better one during a very boring Bioinorganic Chemistry class.
 
So this begs the ultimate question, how is Portugal to develop better with a stronger army to resist the French?

My first thought is that the French invasion of 1807 goes very differently - OTL it was almost a fiasco as the French committed the classic mistake of choosing a road that looked like a straight line on the map but barely existed in reality. Something like 25,000 men crossed the border under Junot on 12 November, but only 1,500 men were left by the time they reached Lisbon at the end of the month after having only received opposition from the terrain and the weather. A Portuguese army that was even remotely willing to fight would have saved Lisbon and imposed a humiliating surrender on the French, which Napoleon probably would not have been able to avenge before Spain revolted next spring, by which time there would be a British army in Portugal assisting the Portuguese (probably under the command of Sir John Moore, the most able British commander before the Duke of Wellington).
 
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