Optimize the RN for WWII
- Thread starter Spencersj345.346
- Start date
iddt3
Donor
I wonder if you could have the RN export
Everyone here is talking about ship design, but doctrine seems like lower hanging fruit. If you can get the RN trained up on invasion fleet interception of a neutral or allied third power, you can prepare them to kill the Norwegian expedition and save Singapore. Both of those have a far bigger impact than a couple of better battleships.
Of the UKs possible enemies, only one can actually be defeated navally, Japan. Only one can possibly defeat the UK navally, Germany. That means that the RN should, first and foremost, be able to protect their own SLOCs from subs, and secondarily be able to interdict Japan's. Tertiary mission is to be able to secure the Med.
Given those priorities, the RNs 1 priority is a fleet that can bottle up whatever couple of prestige battleships the Germans can scrape together, best case is if they can be neutralized by port strike at the beginning of the war. Simultaneously, they need to be able to defeat the U-boat threat decisively.
That means probably a couple battleships, a plan to neutralize the KM in port, lots of escorts, and a plan for efficient convoying. The port strike would either be subs or carrier aircraft or both. Probably design a bomb to be able to defeat sub paddocks.
For Japan, you can strangle them as long as you have sub bases close enough. So you need to be able to defend Singapore. That means intercepting any landings and interdicting supply lines. So, Carriers and cruisers to cover them, plus long range subs to actually win.
I think you mean prewar. Force N died in 1941 after all. I will grant that the Med and especially the North Sea are not the best enviroments for carriers, and that's why I'd grant you still want some battleships.
Everyone here is talking about ship design, but doctrine seems like lower hanging fruit. If you can get the RN trained up on invasion fleet interception of a neutral or allied third power, you can prepare them to kill the Norwegian expedition and save Singapore. Both of those have a far bigger impact than a couple of better battleships.
Of the UKs possible enemies, only one can actually be defeated navally, Japan. Only one can possibly defeat the UK navally, Germany. That means that the RN should, first and foremost, be able to protect their own SLOCs from subs, and secondarily be able to interdict Japan's. Tertiary mission is to be able to secure the Med.
Given those priorities, the RNs 1 priority is a fleet that can bottle up whatever couple of prestige battleships the Germans can scrape together, best case is if they can be neutralized by port strike at the beginning of the war. Simultaneously, they need to be able to defeat the U-boat threat decisively.
That means probably a couple battleships, a plan to neutralize the KM in port, lots of escorts, and a plan for efficient convoying. The port strike would either be subs or carrier aircraft or both. Probably design a bomb to be able to defeat sub paddocks.
For Japan, you can strangle them as long as you have sub bases close enough. So you need to be able to defend Singapore. That means intercepting any landings and interdicting supply lines. So, Carriers and cruisers to cover them, plus long range subs to actually win.
I don't disagree with that. However, you're going to have to sacrifice two or three Rs to make way for Hood because Hood's refit would take longer than the R class refits (unless R is a typo for Renown). Malaya won't be sacrificed. It will be Queen Elizabeth, Renown or Valiant.
And I suggested how Hood could have been refitted without sacrificing another ship. Viz.
Another way would be to bring Warspite's refit forward to 1931-34 and Valiant's to 1934-36 which would allow Hood to be refitted 1936-39.
Keeping Tiger any longer than OTL is impossible without a significant revision of the First London Naval Treaty which would allow Japan and the USA to keep some or all of the ships they had to discard for longer. I don't see that happening. Furthermore, it's unnecessary because of what I wrote in Post 209 and have repeated above.
Well you could use the Tiger as a training ship etc and pull a Kirishima and go "Yep, we've demilitarized her and removed some boilers, yes a few turrets are gone and yes we have increased elevation of the others to a higher angle it is for gunnery training and yes the main belts gone too."
And when or if there isn't a 2nd LNT, and things are rapidly going sideways in Europe, shove her in for a refit if possible.
Re the 15-inch Mk-2's I did read that the idea was that they could fire the older guns ammo, it just would be inferior to the more modern guns rounds. So here's a possible idea, if you develop the 15-inch Mk2 earlier, could you regun the older ships? When they go in for their big refits, you also slap in some modern barrels, you'd save weight.
And hrm re Hood really it is a case of waiting until 38/39 to put her in. The QE's need the refit more urgently, but if you can get Renown and Repulse out first, reduce the BCS to a two ship team and shove Hood in and basically go "yes we are doing extra shifts and yes there's overtime." to try and get her ready as soon as possible, you'd be looking at something like late 1940, to early 41 before she comes out again.
And when or if there isn't a 2nd LNT, and things are rapidly going sideways in Europe, shove her in for a refit if possible.
Re the 15-inch Mk-2's I did read that the idea was that they could fire the older guns ammo, it just would be inferior to the more modern guns rounds. So here's a possible idea, if you develop the 15-inch Mk2 earlier, could you regun the older ships? When they go in for their big refits, you also slap in some modern barrels, you'd save weight.
And hrm re Hood really it is a case of waiting until 38/39 to put her in. The QE's need the refit more urgently, but if you can get Renown and Repulse out first, reduce the BCS to a two ship team and shove Hood in and basically go "yes we are doing extra shifts and yes there's overtime." to try and get her ready as soon as possible, you'd be looking at something like late 1940, to early 41 before she comes out again.
Part of the First London Naval Treaty
Article 2
Article 2
1. The United States, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Japan shall dispose of the following capital ships as provided in this Article:
United States:
"Florida".
"Utah".
"Arkansas" or "Wyoming".
United Kingdom:
"Benbow".
"Iron Duke".
"Marlborough".
"Emperor of India".
"Tiger".
Japan:
"Hiyei".
(a) Subject to the provisions of subparagraph (b), the above ships, unless converted to target use exclusively in accordance with Chapter II, Part 2, paragraph II(c) of the Washington Treaty, shall be scrapped in the following manner:
One of the ships to be scrapped by the United States, and two of those to be scrapped by the United Kingdom shall be rendered unfit for warlike service, in accordance with Chapter II, Part 2, paragraph III(b) of the Washington Treaty, within twelve months from the coming into force of the present Treaty. These ships shall be finally scrapped, in accordance with paragraph II(a) or (b) of the said Part 2, within twenty-four months from the said coming into force. In the case of the second of the ships to be scrapped by the United States, and of the third and fourth of the ships to be scrapped by the United Kingdom, the said periods shall be eighteen and thirty months respectively from the coming into force of the present Treaty.
(b) Of the ships to be disposed of under this Article, the following may be retained for training purposes:
by the United States:
"Arkansas" or "Wyoming".
by the United Kingdom:
"Iron Duke".
by Japan:
"Hiyei".
These ships shall be reduced to the condition prescribed in Section V of Annex II to Part II of the present Treaty. The work of reducing these vessels to the required condition shall begin, in the case of the United States and the United Kingdom within twelve months, and in the case of Japan within eighteen months from the coming into force of the present Treaty; the work shall be completed within six months of the expiration of the abovementioned periods.
Any of these ships which are not retained for training purposes shall be rendered unfit for warlike service within eighteen months, and finally scrapped within thirty months, of the coming into force of the present Treaty.
2. Subject to any disposal of capital ships which might be necessitated, in accordance with the Washington Treaty, by the building by France or Italy of the replacement tonnage referred to in Article 1 of the present Treaty, all existing capital ships mentioned in Chapter II, Part 3, Section II of the Washington Treaty and not designated above to be disposed of may be retained during the term of the present Treaty.
3. The right of replacement is not lost by delay in laying down replacement tonnage, and the old vessel may be retained until replaced even though due for scrapping under Chapter II, Part 3, Section II of the Washington Treaty.
**************************************************************************************************************
All ships to be scrapped have to be scrapped within 30 months of the Treaty coming into force. The treaty was signed on 22nd April 1930 and 30 months after that is 22nd October 1932. Tiger can't be kept for as long as you want. It would have to be a different Treaty that allowed Japan and the USA to keep ships for longer as well.
Frankly, I would be perfectly fine sacrificing two or three R refits for a modernization of Hood. Even refitted Rs were of dubious value in WW2.
Same, what matters is getting the QE's up to a decent standard, the Renowns and the Hood, if we've got 4700 tons to play with during the Nelson's construction they should be able to squeeze a few extra knots out of the ship to push them up to 25 knots without any massive alterations to the hull either.
the next three big ticket items are getting the Follies converted into a uniform class with a full length flight deck from the get go and putting considerable funding into weapons research and development for DP 4.5 and 4.7-inch weapons as well as getting the pom-pom worked out right and built sooner.
Oh and eliminate the torpedo rooms from the Nelrods, they're a big underwater space for a weapon system that has limited use, but the 24.6-inch torpedoes could be used on other ships, they were not long lances but they'd have a huge ass warhead on them.
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I've provided a way to have Hood modernised without sacrificing the refits of other ships so it's a non-issue.
If I remember correctly the Follies couldn't take a full length flight deck as the bows didn't provide enough buoyancy to support the weight. That said rebuilding Furious to match her half sisters would be a good idea.
Alright then you scrap Iron Duke and convert a revenge to a gunnery training ship instead, quietly keeping the ability to make her fully operational if needed. (Save the removed armour, turret and whatever is removed to reduce her top speed to 18 knots).
Oh interesting, also there was the multi-deck layoug that worked fine for biplanes, the Akagi and Kaga had 3 flight decks. But if they didn't have that, then during the rebuilding/refit, try to do so.
But we are talking a 14000t of real warship hybrid CV/CL for that sort of money & crew can you not buy a CVE & a 7000t Leander or Atlanta class if not a full 10k CL and still be under the cost of the 14,000t ship?
Every time I see a 'lets rebuild Tiger' thread or suggestion I'm 'Nope' upgrade her just enough and rebuild Hood instead!
It would not have taken much for the British to argue to retain Tiger as a 'Refit' Spare - perhaps instead of the Target ship Centurion (or in addition too?)
EDIT: NOMs very well made point above pretty puts the Kybosh on this one
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That won't allow you to do what you want to do with Tiger either.
**************************************************************************************************************
The Relevant Section of the First London Naval Treaty
Article 2
The Relevant Section of the First London Naval Treaty
Article 2
(b) Of the ships to be disposed of under this Article, the following may be retained for training purposes:
by the United States:
"Arkansas" or "Wyoming".
by the United Kingdom:
"Iron Duke".
by Japan:
"Hiyei".
These ships shall be reduced to the condition prescribed in Section V of Annex II to Part II of the present Treaty. The work of reducing these vessels to the required condition shall begin, in the case of the United States and the United Kingdom within twelve months, and in the case of Japan within eighteen months from the coming into force of the present Treaty; the work shall be completed within six months of the expiration of the abovementioned periods.
**************************************************************************************************************
In English that meant the conversion of Iron Duke had to begin 12 months after the Treaty came into force and be completed 18 months after the Treaty came into force. As the Treaty was signed on 22nd April 1930 this meant from 22nd April 1931 to 22nd October 1931. It had to be done to the following standards.**************************************************************************************************************
Section V
Vessels retained for training purposes
Section V
Vessels retained for training purposes
(a) In addition to the rights already possessed by any High Contracting Party under the Washington Treaty, each High Contracting Party is permitted to retain for training purposes exclusively the following vessels:
United States: 1 capital ship ("Arkansas" or "Wyoming");
France: 2 surface vessels, one of which may exceed 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standard displacement;
United Kingdom: 1 capital ship ("Iron Duke");
Italy: 2 surface vessels, one of which may exceed 3,000 tons (3,048 metric tons) standard displacement;
Japan: 1 capital ship ("Hiyei") 3 cruisers ("Kuma" class).
(b) Vessels retained for training purposes under the provisions of paragraph (a) shall, within six months of the date on which they are required to be disposed of, be dealt with as follows:1. Capital ships
The following is to be carried out:
(1) Removal of main armament guns, revolving parts of all barbettes and turrets; machinery for operating turrets; but three turrets with their armament may be retained in each ship;
(2) Removal of all ammunition and explosives in excess of the quantity required for target practice training for the guns remaining on board;
(3) Removal of conning tower and the side armour belt between the foremost and aftermost barbettes;
(4) Removal or mutilation of all torpedo tubes;
(5) Removal or mutilation on board of all boilers in excess of the number required for a maximum speed of eighteen knots.
2. Other surface vessels retained by France, Italy and Japan
The following is to be carried out:
(1) Removal of one half of the guns, but four guns of main calibre may be retained on each vessel;
(2) Removal of all torpedo tubes;
(3) Removal of all aviation facilities and accessories;
(4) Removal of one half of the boilers.
(c) The High Contracting Party concerned undertakes that vessels retained in accordance with the provisions of this Section shall not be used for any combatant purpose.
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On another note didn't the Nelsons need major refits due to unexpected problems with their electrical systems among other things...because that gives me a idea. If your having them in the yard for a major refit/rebuild anyways why not pull the 6" twin mounts and their directors (assuming as 3RD SL you weren't able to prevent them from installed in the first place) and boom you have the turrets and directors for either 3 leanders and 4 Artheusas or ships pretty close to them
IIRC they didn’t know about it being underweight until completion. But if they did, and decided to use the extra 3000 (not sure that loophole applies to N &R even using American logic, but let’s assume it does) then they could potentially get her to 28 knots if they used all of that 4700.
The Nelson class machinery was designed at 2420 tons and came out at 2329. If we assume they use 182 of the 4700 tons to bring them back to reliability standard (using the rule of thumb of 1 ton of structure/armour for every ton of machinery added or removed) that leaves 4518 tons. If this were all put into machinery that would allow for 2259 tons in new machinery. The Nelson class appears to have had machinery capable of 18.6 shp/ton (not sure why, Hoods was over 26 but whatever). At this level 2259+2420 = 4679 * 18.6 = 87,029 shp. That is a 93% increase in power which should translate to about 25% increase in speed. Or 28.6 knots.
However, considering how many corners were cut in her construction it is possible they simply use the extra 1700 to reduce some of the self imposed issues. That would leave the 3000 tons subject to USN accounting. That would mean 1500 for machinery, 3920 total machinery weight, 73,000 shp and 27 knots.
Of course, the problem is 1) shoving that much power in the hull, likely requiring a bigger ship and 2) the Post Jutland Admiralty not putting at least some of that weight into Armour.