Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

[Magnificate]

After few years have passed and forum members rotated I think the time is apt to resost my previous map survey.

Basically, I want to know your opinion on optimal borders of Poland after the end of World War One. What constitutes the optimal borders? The choice of criteria is left entirely up to you. To cast your vote color the regions and icons with one of five colors and post your map. Use Violet, Blue and Green to mark only the actual territories of Poland (and states federated with Poland), not the spheres of influence (or states allied with Poland). Feel free to discuss your results. More explanations below.

For those interested in the results of previous survey, Link.

Violet – These territories should be actively pursued since there are indispensable to Poland.
Blue – These territories should be actively pursued after Violet territories are secured.
Green – Territories of secondary importance, yet still worth of pursue if previous objectives are achieved.
Yellow –Maybe… These territories might be kept if offered or if opportunity to snatch them with little to no effort arises. Still, might prove to troublesome.
Red – Negatives from securing and/or keeping these territories outweigh the benefits. Keep out!

1 – West Galicia - (includes Kraków/Cracow),
2 – Spisz/Spiš and Orawa/Orava - beyond interwar Polish-Czechoslovakian borders,
3 – Cieszyn/Teschen - Silesia beyond interwar Polish-German borders,
4 – Upper Silesia - up to interwar Polish-German borders,
5 – Upper Silesia - between interwar Polish-German borders and Korfanty Line,
6 – Upper Silesia - between Korfanty Line and plebiscite area borders,
7 – Greater Poland - Core (includes Poznań/Posen),
8 – Greater Poland - Outer (meant to represent less favorable Polish-German border in Greater Poland, includes Leszno/Lissa and Grodzisk/Grätz),
9 – Greater Poland - Noteć/Netze region (includes Bydgosz/Bromberg),
10 – The Corridor - Ziemia chełmińska/Kulmerland (includes Toruń/Thorn, Chełmo/Kulm and Działdowo/Soldau),
11 – The Corridor – Core,
12 – The Corridor – Coast,
13 – (meant represent more less favorable Polish-German border including most claims),
14 – The Corridor – Gdańsk/Danzig,
15 – East-Prussia - Powiśle (includes Malbork/Marienburg, Kwidzyn/Marienwerder and Iława/Eylau),
16 – East-Prussia - Southern (up to plebiscite borders, includes Olsztyn/Allenstein),
17 – East-Prussia - Core (includes Królewiec/Königsberg/Kaliningrad),
18 – East-Prussia - Klaipėda/Memel,
19 – Lithuania - Core (includes Kowno/Kaunas),
20 – Lithuania - (meant to represent more favorable Polish-Lithuanian border and more territories with significant Polish population),
21 – Lithuania - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up to Latvia (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
22 – Lithuania - ‘Vilnius corridor’ (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders, includes Wilno/Vilnius),
territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
23 – Lithuania - Sudovia up to river Niemen/Neman, Neman west-bank (part of former Suwałki Governate & Congress Poland, includes Marijampolė/Mariampol),
24 – Podlachia - Suwałki/Suvalki,
25 – Podlachia - (includes Augustów/Augustavas and Grodno/Hrodna),
26 – Podlachia – Białystok region,
27 – Podlachia – Brześć/Brest region,
28 – Volhynia - (approximately former Chełm Governate, east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Russian border with Ukraine, includes Chełm/Kholm and Zamość/??)
29 – West Galicia – (east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Austro-Hungarian border with Ukraine, includes Przemyśl/Peremyshl and Rzeszów/Riashiv)
30 – Latvia – Dyneburg/Daugavpils/Dünaburg
31 – Latvia – Latgalia (includes Rzeżyca/Rēzekne)
32 – Ruthenia – (north of Niemen/Neman river, between Central Lithuania and interwar Polish-Soviet border)
33 – Ruthenia - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up Central Lithuana border
34 – ?? – (includes Wołkowysk/Vawkavysk and Lida)
35 – Podlachia – (includes Kobryń/Kobryn)
36 – Volhynia – (between Curzon Line A and Styr River includes Kowel/Kovel and Włodzimierz Wołyński/Volodymyr-Volynskyi)
37 – Galicia - Lvov Region (territories between Curzon Lines A and B, includes Lwów/Lviv/Lemberg)
38 – Subcarpathian Ruthenia
39 – Podlachia – (south of Neman river, includes Pińsk/Pinsk
and Baranowice/Baranovichi)
40 – Volhynia – (between Styr river and interwar Polish-Soviet border, includes Równe/Rivne)
41 – Galicia - Core - (includes Stanisławów/Stanyslaviv/Ivano-Frankivsk)
42 – Galicia - Ternopil Region - (includes Tarnopol/Ternopil)
43 – Galicia - Pokuttya - (includes Kołomyja/Kolomyia)
44 – Bukovina
45 – Ruthenia – Core Belarus (includes Mińsk/Minsk)
46 – Podolia – (includes Kamieniec Podolski/ Kamianets-Podilskyi)
47 – Podolia – (includes Żytomierz/Zhytormyr and Bracław/Bratslav)

Sea Access – Secured regardless of land territories. For example it might represent either land connection to ports in the Corridor or Lithuania, ports in enclaves with exterritorial connection, condominium over ports or secured trade rights in neutral port.
Upper Silesia Industrial Region – Secured regardless of other Upper Silesian territories.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Poland should give up all of Ruthenia and get Upper Silesia, West Galicia and Greater Poland.

 

[Magnificate]

I think Poland should give up all of Ruthenia and get Upper Silesia, West Galicia and Greater Poland.

I was thinking of a more something detailed, like so:

 

[LSCatilina]

There's my two cents.

 

[Shogo]

Hmmm. I guess this will be ok.

I never liked East Prussia being cut off the way it was, and I don't think they really need access to the sea. Other landlocked countries do well enough.

But if we're going to do that, why not just give them Lithuania as well? Let the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth be reborn.

 

[General Tirpitz]

Here's my Poland plan:

 

[kasumigenx]

This is my proposal for a Post WWI Polish borders.

 

[Magnificate]

Many of you do mark both #4 and #5 (Upper Silesia) as desireable, but red-out the industrial region. Elaborate?

 

[ctesiphon]

Here's mine. Purple is core Poland minus certain scraps that could be left to Germany, blue is areas with Polish majority + Gdańsk, Western East Galicia, and area #3. Green areas shold be actively pursued due to having a significant Polish minority (#6, #41, #42, #20), and / or being important for communication and defensibility (#6 #36, #15).

Out of yellow areas, #13 and #16 widen the corridor, so they are worth taking if opportunity arises, especially #16, perhaps the Masurians could be convinced to support Poland in time. 5 eastern yellow provinces give strategic depth and wouldn't be troublesome, while #2 is ok when obtained without effort, but not worth annoying whoever is to the south.

 

[Zajir]

Weaken as much as posible Germany and Lithuania and take as few eastern territories as posible

 

[LSCatilina]

Many of you do mark both #4 and #5 (Upper Silesia) as desireable, but red-out the industrial region. Elaborate?

Because as objective per se, it's not really securable, but with other parts of Upper Silesia, it's more plausible.

I kind of like this method : I wonder if it would be possible to do an "optimal map" for other countries (as optimal Napoleonic France borders).

EDIT : Anyway, I made some corrections to my initial proposition.

 

[Stateless]

I remember this from last time, it's an interesting exercise. What were the results?

 

[MSZ]

My suggested map:

Assuming an OTL situation, with a Weimar Germany and a USSR still existing.

1) Border with Germany being declared as one to be based on “historic borders”, “returning what was taken”, etc. – not national self-determination, as that would certainly infuriate the Germans. Hence Pomeralia and Danzig have priority over anything in East Prussia or even Upper Silesia, as they can be justified as being “reclaimed”. Sea access is as important as it is to any country bordering Russia – those landlocked bordering it always end up poorly.
2) Southern border going as OTL, as it was already established pre-WWI by the various judicial rulings between Poles, Hungarians and Slovaks to a degree satisfying all sides. Pushing southwards against Slovakia makes no sense. Upper Silesia, for historic reasons ought to remain with Germany, except for Tsesin – which, if possible, might be claimed as it was technically Austrian Silesia, so if a deal can be reached with the Czechs, that should be done (and shouldn’t the legend under no. 3 say “beyond Polish-Czechoslovak border?”).
3) Northern border with Prussia should be a pre-WWI one, even excluding those territories Poland OTL got from the plebiscites (“we don’t have the “Polish” part of East Prussia, you don’t have the “German” parts of West Prussia, so it is fair and square”). Vilnus and the corridor should be Polish, by virtue of population, and the border may even push further west into Lithuania (provided its foreign policy is as idiotic as OTL, these territories can be returned if a deal with Lithuania can be reached). No point in going to Latvia, Courland or Daugavplis – nothing to gain there.
4) Eastern border – Poland is better than the USSR, that much is certain. And if Poland can expand eastwards more, chances that it would federalize, creating some kind of Federal Republic of Poland increase, making the situation even better than OTL. Maximum such extension would be to the Dnepr. Other than that, the importance of the eastern territories depends on the amount of the Polish population they have, or “close to being Polish” – hence present day Belarus being more important than present day Ukraine.

 

[yannik]

My suggested map:

 

[Magnificate]

My suggested map:

Why 41 if not 29?

I'm also curious as for the reason people red-out entire German territories, going as far as to red-out 7.

 

[anotherlurker]

none, as in a better world there would have been no ww1 and a following ww2.

over 200 million people (war1, war2, spanish flue, famines, civil war, cultural revolution in china, etcetc) not getting killed beats polish freedom any day of the week, sry.

 

[ctesiphon]

none, as in a better world there would have been no ww1 and a following ww2.

over 200 million people (war1, war2, spanish flue, famines, civil war, cultural revolution in china, etcetc) not getting killed beats polish freedom any day of the week, sry.

What is the point of this post?

 

[BlondieBC]

Poland has to have allies, but also need land/area for defense in depth and strength. Since most of the core is from Russia, this tells me who is my allies (not Russia). So don't take land from Germany and find a good border with the Czechs. The Baltic people are good allies or access to the sea is useful, so either way there. After this, push as far east as practical, which will probably be about OTL eastern borders, but might be farther east or west.

 

[Dementor]

Something like this:

 

[Dementor]

none, as in a better world there would have been no ww1 and a following ww2.

over 200 million people (war1, war2, spanish flue, famines, civil war, cultural revolution in china, etcetc) not getting killed beats polish freedom any day of the week, sry.

Sometimes it's a good idea to actually read the title of a thread before replying.