Optimal Post-WW1 Lithuanian Borders Survey

[Augenis]

I've been inspired both by the Polish and Serbian border survey equivalents to create a similar survey for Lithuania, for the tumultous time that was the period between 1918-1920. As always, you can use whatever measure to determine the best possible borders, be it national borders, cultural or historical claims, or strategic importance.

The five levels are the same as always:
Priority 1: must be acquired at all cost
Priority 2: may only be sought once all of Priority 1 is acquired
Priority 3: may only be sought once all of Priority 2 is acquired
Keep if offered: keep territory if offered by other countries, otherwise do not claim
Keep out: do not claim

Spoiler: List of territories

1. Kovno Governorate
2. Suvalkija/Sudovia
3. Braslaw (Belarusian parts of Kovno Governorate)
4. Aknysta (formerly part of Kovno Governonate, given to Latvia in 1921)
5. Palanga (formerly part of Curonian Governonate, given to Lithuania in 1921)
6. Liepaja
7. Daugavpils/Dunaburg
8. Latgale
9. Rest of Selonia
10. Western Vilna Governorate (OTL interwar Polish-Lithuanian border)
11. City of Vilnius and surrounding area
12. Švenčionys/Swieciany
13. Trakai/Troki
14. Šalčininkai/Soleczniki
15. Varėna/Orany
16. Ashmiany/Ašmena
17. Dzisna/Dysna
18. Central Vilna Governorate (OTL Soviet-Lithuanian border according to 1920 treaty)
19. Lida
20. Rest of Vilna Governorate
21. Navahrudak
22. Grodno/Hrodna
23. Punsk/Punskas and Sejny/Seinai
24. Rest of Suwalki Governorate
25. Bialystok
26. Klaipėda Region/Memelland
27. Tilsit/Tilžė and Ragnit/Ragainė (most Lithuanian part of Lithuania Minor)
28. Gumbinnen/Gumbinė
29. Labiau-Niederung
30. Insterburg
31. Rest of Gumbinnen Region
32. Wehlau
33. Sambia
34. Konigsberg/Karaliaučius

 

[GDIS Pathe]

my logic access tot he sea and ancestral capital everything else is secondary memel will be nice but we don't want to piss of Germans

 

[Augenis]

Here is mine:

 

[Augenis]

my logic access tot he sea and ancestral capital everything else is secondary memel will be nice but we don't want to piss of Germans

Interesting, you would give top priority for Liepaja?

What about the "further" claims, or are they all red to you?

 

[GDIS Pathe]

Interesting, you would give top priority for Liepaja?

What about the "further" claims, or are they all red to you?

access to the sea basically it probably should be yellow though further claims are while not out of the question best to be done with international approval later down the line things like taking memel from a red Germany that sort of thing

 

[Magnum]

Should have gone for a union with Poland, provided their autonomy was respected

 

[Deleted member 97083]

A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of Lithuania. All the powers of Europe have entered into a unholy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Lenin and Trotsky, Żeligowski and Piłsudski, Bermondt-Avalov and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as Lithuanian by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of Lithuanianism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its imperialist adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Lithuania is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Lithuanians should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Lithuanians with a manifesto of the party itself.

To this end, Lithuanians of various provinces have assembled in Vilnius and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the Lithuanian language.

 

[Augenis]

Should have gone for a union with Poland, provided their autonomy was respected

I was thinking of adding two additional off-map proposals - Restore Commonwealth and Create Baltic Union - but I decided that it wouldn't really fit into a border survey.

A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of Lithuania. All the powers of Europe have entered into a unholy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Lenin and Trotsky, Żeligowski and Piłsudski, Bermondt-Avalov and German police-spies.

Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as Lithuanian by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of Lithuanianism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its imperialist adversaries?

Two things result from this fact:

I. Lithuania is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.

II. It is high time that Lithuanians should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Lithuanians with a manifesto of the party itself.

To this end, Lithuanians of various provinces have assembled in Vilnius and sketched the following manifesto, to be published in the Lithuanian language.

View attachment 343047

This is gold. No, this beyond gold.

This is amber.

 

[LSCatilina]

Borders made both with the idea of what would best benefit Lithuania as such, but Entente's interests as well, meaning preventing Poland to get too big while keeping possible German and Bolshevik influence on a minimum.

 

[Augenis]

Borders made both with the idea of what would best benefit Lithuania as such, but Entente's interests as well, meaning preventing Poland to get too big while keeping possible German and Bolshevik influence on a minimum.

You attached a blank map.

 

[LSCatilina]

You attached a blank map.

Yeah, problem with a file, was edited.

 

[fasquardon]

I've always thought it would be interesting if the meetings of Baltic nationalists around the end of the 19th Century went differently and the Lithuanians and Latvians had sought to unite their various dialects into a single nation rather than the two nations they decided on in OTL. That would be more a partnership of equals than a "greater Lithuania" though.

fasquardon

 

[Augenis]

I've always thought it would be interesting if the meetings of Baltic nationalists around the end of the 19th Century went differently and the Lithuanians and Latvians had sought to unite their various dialects into a single nation rather than the two nations they decided on in OTL. That would be more a partnership of equals than a "greater Lithuania" though.

fasquardon

The problem with uniting Lithuania and Latvia, though, is that they actually share little in common outside of both being Baltic and under the Russian Empire. They follow different religions, went separate paths for almost all of their history, even their common mentality is somewhat different. They even conflicted over border regions after WW1. Pan-Baltism is almost completely a late 20th century concept.

 

[Zagan]

My vote:

My logic:

• Do not antagonize all your neighbours, keep friendly those with whom you have the least important overlapping land claims.
• Do not take land from Germany, it is certain that they will be back after you some time in the near future.
• If you have to antagonize someone, let it be the Poles! So, take as much land as possible from them.
• Don't take Bialystok (undefensible protrusion with almost no Lithuanians).
• Don't take the easternmost areas (very few Lithuanians and we don't want a common border with the Soviet Union!)
• The green areas represent (if I am not mistaken) the territory recognized as Lithuanian by the Soviet Union so one less problem here.
• Reserve Lithuania is a fine idea, although difficult to achieve. Try to buy some island in the Indian Ocean (not in the Americas, see Monroe Doctrine).

.

 

[Augenis]

My vote:

View attachment 343075

My logic:

• Do not antagonize all your neighbours, keep friendly those with whom you have the least important overlapping land claims.
• Do not take land from Germany, it is certain that they will be back after you some time in the near future.
• If you have to antagonize someone, let it be the Poles! So, take as much land as possible from them.
• Don't take Bialystok (undefensible protrusion with almost no Lithuanians).
• Don't take the easternmost areas (very few Lithuanians and we don't want a common border with the Soviet Union!)
• The green areas represent (if I am not mistaken) the territory recognized as Lithuanian by the Soviet Union so one less problem here.
• Reserve Lithuania is a fine idea, although difficult to achieve. Try to buy some island in the Indian Ocean (not in the Americas, see Monroe Doctrine).

.

Interesting. Very OTL-like, though.

 

[CaliGuy]

I've been inspired both by the Polish and Serbian border survey equivalents to create a similar survey for Lithuania, for the tumultous time that was the period between 1918-1920. As always, you can use whatever measure to determine the best possible borders, be it national borders, cultural or historical claims, or strategic importance.

View attachment 343037

The five levels are the same as always:
Priority 1: must be acquired at all cost
Priority 2: may only be sought once all of Priority 1 is acquired
Priority 3: may only be sought once all of Priority 2 is acquired
Keep if offered: keep territory if offered by other countries, otherwise do not claim
Keep out: do not claim

Spoiler: List of territories

1. Kovno Governorate
2. Suvalkija/Sudovia
3. Braslaw (Belarusian parts of Kovno Governorate)
4. Aknysta (formerly part of Kovno Governonate, given to Latvia in 1921)
5. Palanga (formerly part of Curonian Governonate, given to Lithuania in 1921)
6. Liepaja
7. Daugavpils/Dunaburg
8. Latgale
9. Rest of Selonia
10. Western Vilna Governorate (OTL interwar Polish-Lithuanian border)
11. City of Vilnius and surrounding area
12. Švenčionys/Swieciany
13. Trakai/Troki
14. Šalčininkai/Soleczniki
15. Varėna/Orany
16. Ashmiany/Ašmena
17. Dzisna/Dysna
18. Central Vilna Governorate (OTL Soviet-Lithuanian border according to 1920 treaty)
19. Lida
20. Rest of Vilna Governorate
21. Navahrudak
22. Grodno/Hrodna
23. Punsk/Punskas and Sejny/Seinai
24. Rest of Suwalki Governorate
25. Bialystok
26. Klaipėda Region/Memelland
27. Tilsit/Tilžė and Ragnit/Ragainė (most Lithuanian part of Lithuania Minor)
28. Gumbinnen/Gumbinė
29. Labiau-Niederung
30. Insterburg
31. Rest of Gumbinnen Region
32. Wehlau
33. Sambia
34. Konigsberg/Karaliaučius

Question--where exactly can I find the relevant thread for Poland?

 

[Wendell]

Here is mine:

 

[LSCatilina]

Results so far (having ignored Achemenid's proposal, tough).

With the result picture, Lithuania including everything reaching at least 3, 5 and 6 on the score.
Interesting to notice that Lithuania still have a core territory not only essentially equivalent to IOTL there, but even with a slight extension eastwards.

 

[Obergruppenführer Smith]

Can I just say I want it to be part of the reborn Commonwealth?

 

[Augenis]

Results so far (having ignored Achemenid's proposal, tough).

With the result picture, Lithuania including everything reaching at least 3, 5 and 6 on the score.
Interesting to notice that Lithuania still have a core territory not only essentially equivalent to IOTL there, but even with a slight extension eastwards.

Thank you very much for this. Looks like the people out here want to see a stronger Lithuania.

Can I just say I want it to be part of the reborn Commonwealth?

Well, you could - but you can use this survey to show what you would want Lithuania's borders within the Commonwealth be.