Optimal GERMANY post-World War I borders survey (Central Powers victory)

I think Germany would go pretty minimalistic, they would take Briey and Luxembourg, likely some very small border changes along the Polish border. They likely set up a lot of states as buffer in the east, and do something in Belgium. Beside that they would ordinarily expand their colonial empire.
 
Austria-Hungary is a Central Power ally. Why is Germany annexing all that territory? If the Centrals win, then Austria-Hungary survives surely? It may have to federalise, mind you but that's a different issue all together.
Yeah and with they winning and dismalting their rivals, they would easily live and improve the country.

For Optimal Border, adding Luxemburg and Briey and Longwy and no more, the rest would be vassals and allies
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Ah, my bad.

We need to know what @CaliGuy means by "strategically important" really.

To @CaliGuy, what was your base map? The borders in the East especially look very hand drawn as opposed to being based on Russian governates. Are they river borders?
This map is my base map here:

http://d-maps.com/m/history/europe1914/europe191403.gif

Basically, I tried recreating Ukraine's and Belarus's borders from here but wasn't too successful at it seeing as I was doing it based on memory:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/tobl-jpg.8876/

As for that borders which extends from Galicia to Courland, I tried imitating the 1915-1917 German-Russian front line:

http://omniatlas.com/maps/europe/19160920/

Also, I have now tried to do a new Eastern map which has all of the Russian gubernias:

germany wwi.png


For the record, this map is based on this one:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=resources:russian_empire_labelled_.png

Also, I added the Caucasus onto the map but put them at low priority since I wouldn't be able to defend them very well. Basically, I do want to separate oil-rich Baku from Russia and Armenia and Georgia are useful for strategic reasons (they provide a more defensible frontier in the Caucasus) but it would still be hard to continuously field a large German army in the Caucasus.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Austria-Hungary is a Central Power ally. Why is Germany annexing all that territory? If the Centrals win, then Austria-Hungary survives surely? It may have to federalise, mind you but that's a different issue all together.
After a long World War I, I wouldn't exclude the possibility of an internal revolution destroying Austria-Hungary from within.

Why would they annex Lorrainne? Its entirely french and would be much more trouble than its worth.

It could still be useful as a buffer zone, though.

My guess is in the west the most is Luxemburg, Briey and Longwy, and maybe Liege (Lüttich) from Belgium.

Yeah, that might be the safer option here.

In the East mostly small scale border correction towards Poland and maybe the Baltic Duchy can be annexed at most but neither is necessery. Rest goes to new 'independent' states who will hapily join Mittelerupe.

Agreed; indeed, please keep in mind that I only outright annexed Suwalki in the East. As for the rest of Russia's ceded Eastern territories, I want to turn them into German allies.

If Austria does fall apart than the Austrian part of the Empire without Galicia, Bukovina and Dalmatia would be annexed to Germany.

Agreed.

Local populace wont be asked in any of the above cases.

Agreed.
 
You're right; thanks for correcting me here.

That said, though, it would still leave eastern East Prussia less vulnerable than it was before the war.
I'm not so sure about it myself - sure, the borders may be more defensible in the north, but now East Prussia sticks out into enemy territory like a sore thumb. A repeat of the Russian strategy at the 1914 East Prussia offensive would leave the German troops in Suvalkija cut off from the mainland and surrounded, which is not what you want.

Not to mention that it just looks ugly.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I'm not so sure about it myself - sure, the borders may be more defensible in the north, but now East Prussia sticks out into enemy territory like a sore thumb. A repeat of the Russian strategy at the 1914 East Prussia offensive would leave the German troops in Suvalkija cut off from the mainland and surrounded, which is not what you want.

Would the Russian strategy in 1914 have worked as well if the Russians had to go through heavily fortified northern and eastern East Prussia, though?

Not to mention that it just looks ugly.

Actually, I think that the Suwalki Gubernia would make an excellent and beautiful addition to East Prussia due to it extending East Prussia's borders to their natural limit. :)
 

trajen777

Banned
I like the map -- general observations :

1. East : Objective would be to eliminate Russia as a viable enemy for the near future so that a strengthened France without a strong eastern partner would be a minimal threat. In 1910 - 20s a large portion of the Russian industry, population, and resources were in the Ukraine, Belo and Baltic states (Riga 2nd largest city).
a. Cortland direct annex and people moved from Germany to there (settlers).
b. Rest of the Baltic states and Poland controlled Econ, foreign policy,and militarily by Germany.
2. West : Good borders, Lorraine could be worked out by population transfers with France and Germany. The loss of BL would make a revanche France difficult.
3. South. If AH collapsed this is a good border.
I think one of the situations that would be an impact in the future would be a future "all vs Germany" Europe. However if you could keep peace for 10 - 20 years the Middleeuropa would bring wealth to all involved. You would have Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states, Turkey, Hungry, Romania (?), Bulgaria, Italy (?) as allies to keep down Russia. For France i think they would try to work a financial accommodation with Germany. I think GB is impossible for Germany to win and at the same time GB cant defeat Germany.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I think Germany would go pretty minimalistic, they would take Briey and Luxembourg, likely some very small border changes along the Polish border. They likely set up a lot of states as buffer in the east, and do something in Belgium. Beside that they would ordinarily expand their colonial empire.
Is that would you would have done if you were the leader of Germany, Jurgen?
 
As for the east, I could see them annexing Crimea as a German outpost in the east

That seems unlikely to me as it virtually guarantees another war with Russia. In addition it's vulnerable to a invasion because its distance from Germany and nearness to Russia while at the same time providing very little strategic advantage to an expanding German navy. A major German outpost in the Black Sea faces the same problem that the Russians have; it's too easy to bottle them in the Strait. It's going to be a money pit that relies on continued good relations with the Ottomans to stay functional and does little to aid Germany's expansion other than to piss off Russia.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
That seems unlikely to me as it virtually guarantees another war with Russia. In addition it's vulnerable to a invasion because its distance from Germany and nearness to Russia while at the same time providing very little strategic advantage to an expanding German navy. A major German outpost in the Black Sea faces the same problem that the Russians have; it's too easy to bottle them in the Strait. It's going to be a money pit that relies on continued good relations with the Ottomans to stay functional and does little to aid Germany's expansion other than to piss off Russia.
Germany would also need to have good relations with Britain; after all, Britain was the master of the seas back then.
 
Is that would you would have done if you were the leader of Germany, Jurgen?

Likely, I think with hindsight I would have made all the colonies into protectorates including the German ones, which would gain full independence 20-40 years (20years for the more developed colonies) down the road with a full timetable for independence given to the population with increasing autonomy year by year. A few one like Morocco and Tunisia I would gave given independence at once. It would pretty much have fucked up the entire colonial system for UK, and would have given a lot of brownie points outside Europe. Beside that I would have set up some kind of proto-EEC up (likely with France regaining Briey down the road) and a LN.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Likely, I think with hindsight I would have made all the colonies into protectorates including the German ones, which would gain full independence 20-40 years (20years for the more developed colonies) down the road with a full timetable for independence given to the population with increasing autonomy year by year. A few one like Morocco and Tunisia I would gave given independence at once. It would pretty much have fucked up the entire colonial system for UK, and would have given a lot of brownie points outside Europe. Beside that I would have set up some kind of proto-EEC up (likely with France regaining Briey down the road) and a LN.
Are you also going to give Algeria (technically a part of France) independence?

Also, what concessions are you going to make in Europe in order to get Britain and France to give up their colonies to you? After all, it's not like you are going to be able to outright capture all of their colonies given their superior naval power.

In addition to this, is having France regain Briey a bargaining chip that you would induce in order to get France to join this proto-EEC?
 
Are you also going to give Algeria (technically a part of France) independence?

Of course not why remove a millstone from around the French neck?
Also, what concessions are you going to make in Europe in order to get Britain and France to give up their colonies to you? After all, it's not like you are going to be able to outright capture all of their colonies given their superior naval power.

I wouldn't take the British colonies, I would fuck with UK by letting the French colonies become independent (how do you the British colonial subject would react to that?), and France would get the German troops out of Paris.

In addition to this, is having France regain Briey a bargaining chip that you would induce in order to get France to join this proto-EEC?

No I would give it back, because it would be a Saar level headache for Germany. That it would serve as a nice gesture only helps.
 
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