Correct. The 2nd version came into play when the joint chiefs deemed the attack on USSR as unfeasible.
The attack on USSR version - the first - is the one which must have been beyond mere staff work. Staff work of such lunacy plans hardly ever (as far as I know) gets into orders to field commanders (Monty) or force allocations. That is my main point on the attack one. How far did it really go.
The Kew reference seems very interesting, but is it solely related to the 2nd option: How to fight a Russian attack?
Unfortunately Kew is not around the corner for me.
on the 1st option: Did Ike mention this in his book? Brooke? I don't think so.
Monty was 21st army chief until 25 August where he took over as commander of the army of the Rhine. He must have been heavily involved in the planning. Anybody having anything from his hand on this?
The only one who could have told Monty to store German equipment must have been Brooke.
The plot in this thickens.
Ivan
This evening I went carefully through the Planners' report on the possibility of taking on Russia should trouble arise in our future discussions with her. We were instructed to carry out this investigation. The idea is of course fantastic and the chances of success quite impossible. There is no doubt that from now onwards Russia is all powerful in Europe.
Adjusting the attitude of entire countries takes a lot longer and a lot more effort then slapping up some new posters. Unless Stalin attacks first, the WAllies are going to have a insurmountable PR problem on their hands if they go through with Unthinkable.My guess is the propaganda posters suddenly switch about who is our friend who 'fights for freedom'.
Adjusting the attitude of entire countries takes a lot longer and a lot more effort then slapping up some new posters.
The Second World War, Volume 6, page 655. (1954 edition)Prime Minister to General Ismay 23 July 45
What is being done with German rifles? It is a great mistake to destroy rifles. If possible, at least a couple of million should be preserved for Britain.
Adjusting the attitude of entire countries takes a lot longer and a lot more effort then slapping up some new posters. Unless Stalin attacks first, the WAllies are going to have a insurmountable PR problem on their hands if they go through with Unthinkable.
... and the 'liberate' Poland story just makes it even worse.
Imagine 200,000 SS troops saddling up again and 'liberating' Poland. Great news for all involved.
Quickly melting down the Shermans and building Tiger-II's instead.
No more spitfires. Arm the invasion force with Me-262's
Put Steiner in overall command as he is the only one (left) with 'expertise' in fighting the Russians.
Oh yes. Unthinkable is .. unthinkable.
That it could even get to the stage where Monty is told to ease up on destroying German equipment (and putting it in storage instead) as it would soon be needed again, is just .. insane.
We have toyed with the idea if the fact that such planning was being carried out, it might topple the UK government.
Not doing it, but just considering something this left-field.
Ivan
Ivan
All of the Allied tanks can defeat the T34-85 and the other tanks making up the bulk of the Red Army at or beyond the ranges that it can kill them.
Mainly an advantage if the war last a long-time. Air-power needs time and room to work, which the WAllies simply don't have in Unthinkable. Beating down the VVS to a point where the WAllies can claim air superiority is a process that will take the WAllies roughly a year... but given the political situation they don't have a year.Also why would the allies need ME262's they have their own jet planes and an Airforce that would swamp the Russians.
And anyway all of those Spitfires and Typhoons and P47s, 51s etc etc are good enough to face what the Russians had.
A lot of those encounters came down more to crew training then what tanks they were driving. Tank forces were a rather new thing for the North Koreans (to roughly quote an American who served as a tanker during the Korean War "the Koreans clearly didn't know how to use their tanks like the Russians did") while the Arab armies which fought the Israelis armies were (and really are still) just flat-out incompetent.The 76mm gunned Sherman's might have struggled vs the big German cats but M4 Easy 8s have generally outmatched T34-85 when ever the 2 have met.
Anyone else heard of Operation Barbarossa being used as a counter to a planned soviet invasion of Europe?
Anyone else heard of Operation Barbarossa being used as a counter to a planned soviet invasion of Europe?
http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/04/exposing-stalins-plan-to-conquer-europe/
To me this is what Churchill was afraid of the whole time. I don't see the Allies winning at all around 1945. If this invasion of Europe is believable and I believe it is then this really opens up who was really the enemy of World War 2 and if knowing how it went down with the soviets afterward would we side with them at all?
Anyone else heard of Operation Barbarossa being used as a counter to a planned soviet invasion of Europe?
http://www.counter-currents.com/2011/04/exposing-stalins-plan-to-conquer-europe/
To me this is what Churchill was afraid of the whole time. I don't see the Allies winning at all around 1945. If this invasion of Europe is believable and I believe it is then this really opens up who was really the enemy of World War 2 and if knowing how it went down with the soviets afterward would we side with them at all?
What? The T-34's reputation may be exaggerated and the Sherman's underrated but... what?
The T-34/85 is perfectly capable of killing a Sherman at standard battle ranges (and vice-versa) but the WAllies are going to find the Soviet heavy tanks and assault guns (save for the Su-76) to be nightmares on the level of the German heavies except the Soviets will and did deploy them in far vaster quantities then the Germans best dreams or the Anglo-Americans worse nightmares.
Mainly an advantage if the war last a long-time. Air-power needs time and room to work, which the WAllies simply don't have in Unthinkable. Beating down the VVS to a point where the WAllies can claim air superiority is a process that will take the WAllies roughly a year... but given the political situation they don't have a year.
A lot of those encounters came down more to crew training then what tanks they were driving. Tank forces were a rather new thing for the North Koreans (to roughly quote an American who served as a tanker during the Korean War "the Koreans clearly didn't know how to use their tanks like the Russians did") while the Arab armies which fought the Israelis armies were (and really are still) just flat-out incompetent.
The ISU-152 Probably the largest and best armed Soviet assault gun had a frontal armour of 90mm (slightly more in the gun Mantlet area)
Would work about as well as against the Tiger I, possibly worse if they hit a sloped part of the armor. The M4 would still have a mobility advantage, but not as big as with the Tiger. It's real advantage, though, is in RoF.Its only the later IS tanks that 'Standard' 76mm ammo would struggle with - HVAP though...
Agreed.Again completely moot point - but if the war lasted that long then you're going to see more Gloster Meteors and DH Vampires - not ME262s
Neither are the Soviet's.And the rather large number of existing Piston Engined Single seat fighters in the Wallied air forces is not to be sniffed at.
It's a rough estimate based on how long it took the WAllies to break the Luftwaffe. Allied air power in Normandy in 1944 pinned the Germans down, but it did so at the end of a long campaign spanning years to pound German industry, cripple their transportation networks, and destroy their air force.I am interested to see where you got the 1 Year figure from?
Oh, the WAllies will be able to get some of their strikes in. So will the VVS. The nature of air parity is that neither side has the advantage, not that both sides are unable to conduct air strikes.I don't see the VVS capable of stopping the Allied Airforces from attacking where they pleased from day 1 quite frankly
Not surprising... the North Koreans weren't as good as the Russians but they were good enough to try and leverage their own equipments advantages over inferior stuff. It's when they ran up against an equal that they crumpled.Those North Koreans where good enough when they over ran task force Smith and where Knocking out the M24 Chaffies the US Army were using!
The Egyptians are indeed one of the better Arab armies, but that is a very low bar to clear. The incompetence of Arab armies in modern warfare is extremely well documented, I recommend Pollack's Why Arab's Lose Wars for a detailed analysis.And don't let the Egyptians hear you say that! They pretty much fought the IDF to a stand still.
1973 is actually quite interesting tailoring their tactical-operational methodology to the army they had while simultaneously countering the Israelis. The breaching of the Suez line was basically a phased-advance-and-entrenchment scheme straight out of World War 1, only modified to take into account advances in technology. The troops involved had been rigorously briefed and trained in live-fire exercises on exactly what they were going to do, step-by-step, repeatedly in the run up to the invasion.There is a very good reason that Egypt and Israel deal with each other in such a cordial fashion. The Israelis respect them and have done since the events of 73
It's usually more the crews, and really the entire military apparatus above them, rather then the equipment. As the old saying goes "it's a poor user who blames his tools." A poorly-equipped but well trained army with a competent military system can achieve remarkable things against a much larger, much better equipped but also much more incompetent enemy. Unfortunately for the WAllies, the Soviets of 1945 are far from incompetent.Just messing with you - but I could have bet good money that you would have used the Poorly trained crews / Export model that I always hear in defence of Russian Equipment found wanting when facing Western Equipment.
Well conspiracy to plan aggressive war and preparation for aggression and planning of aggressive war were crimes at Nuremberg.
It was also made a crime for the planning or preparation of a war of aggression under the crimes against peace clause there as well.
OK, I admit: it was partly in jest.
... and I am not suggesting that the poster should be someone in a black uniform with some other insignia and stating: "He is back!" with the caption of "to liberate you this time".
Out of all the areas where Unthinkable is .. unthinkable .. the one where it is revolting is the thought of arming 10 German divisions for a 1 July 1945 attack.
Any country having been occupied by Germany would not really appreciate such a move.
Ivan