Operation Unthinkable

Hi. I'm doing a research project on Operation Unthinkable and was wondering if anyone had some information or would be willing to help me out? As most of this information is theoretical it is really hard to find.
 
Is this Churchill's idea for the Americans and British to join forces with the surviving Germans against he Red Army if it advanceed too far west?

I happened to be at a wargames convention yesterday and one of the clubs was doing it.
 
Is this Churchill's idea for the Americans and British to join forces with the surviving Germans against he Red Army if it advanceed too far west?

I happened to be at a wargames convention yesterday and one of the clubs was doing it.

How did that work out?
 
It is. I am trying to find information to determine the abilities of each side to defeat each other and just get general information to form an alternate history from the end of world war 2.
 
Remember, it was supposed to be an unprovoked attack on USSR but US/UK.

It also had as an element the re-arming of some initial 200,000 Wehrmacht (and SS probably).

It was supposed to kick off in early July.

USSR was not the attacker.

Ivan
 
Objective

Is this Churchill's idea for the Americans and British to join forces with the surviving Germans against he Red Army if it advanceed too far west?

I happened to be at a wargames convention yesterday and one of the clubs was doing it.
I think the original idea was that it was supposed to 'liberate' Poland from the Russians. After all the British had declared war on Germany in the first place over Poland...
 
... and the 'liberate' Poland story just makes it even worse.

Imagine 200,000 SS troops saddling up again and 'liberating' Poland. Great news for all involved.

Quickly melting down the Shermans and building Tiger-II's instead.

No more spitfires. Arm the invasion force with Me-262's

Put Steiner in overall command as he is the only one (left) with 'expertise' in fighting the Russians.

Oh yes. Unthinkable is .. unthinkable.

That it could even get to the stage where Monty is told to ease up on destroying German equipment (and putting it in storage instead) as it would soon be needed again, is just .. insane.

We have toyed with the idea if the fact that such planning was being carried out, it might topple the UK government.

Not doing it, but just considering something this left-field.

Ivan




Ivan
 
... and the 'liberate' Poland story just makes it even worse.

Imagine 200,000 SS troops saddling up again and 'liberating' Poland. Great news for all involved.

Those German troops (I see that your 200,000 Wehrmacht and probably some SS troops from post #8 turned into 200,000 purely SS troops in post #11) would be kept on a tight leash by their Anglo-American superiors. And I assume that they would in any case be outnumbered by actual Brits and Americans, whose arrival would be welcomed by the local population which was at the time actively resisting the stalinization of their country.

Quickly melting down the Shermans and building Tiger-II's instead.

No more spitfires. Arm the invasion force with Me-262's

Put Steiner in overall command as he is the only one (left) with 'expertise' in fighting the Russians.

Be serious.
 
I should point that it was well named and very unlikely. For everybody on all sides, including the USSR, was tired of war.

So, It was as a precaution of Churchy's, not something remotely likely.
 
OK, point taken. I will cool the humour a bit.

However, I do wonder if there is anything up there in terms of total lunacy.

Even the thought of enrolling 200,000 Germans to liberate Eastern Europe is way beyond anything.

The timing is even more insane: July 1945. ,...And who says that any German (having just survived Hitler) would like to go on a crusade - again.

The planning was after all past the initial stage insofar as Monty had orders not to waste too much German equipment - it would be needed.

Hitler's last dream of marching to Moscow arm in arm with the W-Allies would be reality. Insanity.

The more dramatic part (except just stoning it to death) is: How far did the planning go.

If we try to be realistic, it has a few un-answered questions:

1) Who issued orders to Monty to store German equipment
2) Joint chiefs of Staff deemed it unfeasible, but had anyway allocated divisions - deduced from the way Wiki describes it
3) It is good and well to call it a staff study (and all staffs should have some fanciful things in the drawer), but who was the architect behind the details?
4) How far was Truman involved?
5) Ike would have been a key player - where was he in this and his staff
6) were some Germans being recruited? or at least numbered.
7) Did France approve of this? France would have been a part due to geography.

It was buried until 1998. Any earlier declassification could have been disastrous to any UK government.

We have had a discussion here on the fall-out if this had been known in the 50's, 60's or even 70's.

Ivan
 
Well if anyone is going to the National Archive at Kew you could always look this up ...

Reference:CAB 120/691 Description: Contingency planning against possible Russian aggression: Operation UNTHINKABLE [papers 22 May - 11 July 1945]
 
Every military should plan for everything - it's their job after all. Also, note that there were two variations on Unthinkable IIRC - one offensive and one defensive.
 
Correct. The 2nd version came into play when the joint chiefs deemed the attack on USSR as unfeasible.

The attack on USSR version - the first - is the one which must have been beyond mere staff work. Staff work of such lunacy plans hardly ever (as far as I know) gets into orders to field commanders (Monty) or force allocations. That is my main point on the attack one. How far did it really go.

The Kew reference seems very interesting, but is it solely related to the 2nd option: How to fight a Russian attack?

Unfortunately Kew is not around the corner for me.

on the 1st option: Did Ike mention this in his book? Brooke? I don't think so.

Monty was 21st army chief until 25 August where he took over as commander of the army of the Rhine. He must have been heavily involved in the planning. Anybody having anything from his hand on this?

The only one who could have told Monty to store German equipment must have been Brooke.

The plot in this thickens.

Ivan
 
Every military should plan for everything - it's their job after all. Also, note that there were two variations on Unthinkable IIRC - one offensive and one defensive.

Well conspiracy to plan aggressive war and preparation for aggression and planning of aggressive war were crimes at Nuremberg.

It was also made a crime for the planning or preparation of a war of aggression under the crimes against peace clause there as well.

Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing;

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html
 
Interestingly enough, I've only seen one case of trying to look at it from Soviet perspective. It was a TV documentary series and said that Soviets were aware of such plans being floated through their agents in British intel. As a precaution they redeployed their forces in Germany to meet this potential threat. Once summer has passed they knew nothing will come of it (plus their ources told them it's not happening anyway).

And I think this detail is something that is sorely missing from any talk about Unthinkable. At the very least, if NKVD thinks baloon is actually going up, they could use their sympathizers in west to expose the idea, both to get population in uproar and tell Churchill & Co. that Soviets are aware of it and there will be no surprise.
 
Prelude to Potsdam?

I've been thinking about the operation some more, and it seems to me that it would be a good idea to at least consider how practicable action against the Russians might be, before the Potsdam conference took place, since it would affect Churchill's negotiating position at Potsdam. If Churchill knows, going into Potsdam, that any attempt at military action to affect the position of Poland is almost certainly futile (which it is) then he has to play things much softer with Stalin than he would be able to do if he knew an Allied military action was a potential option on the table.
 
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