Operation Unthinkable: What if?

Operation Unthinkable was a code name of two related plans of a conflict between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. Both were ordered by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in 1945 and developed by the British Armed Forces' Joint Planning Staff at the end of World War II in Europe.

The first of the two assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany in order to "impose the will of the Western Allies" on the Soviets. "The will" was qualified as "square deal for Poland" (which probably meant enforcing the recently signed Yalta Agreement). When the odds were judged "fanciful", the original plan was abandoned. The code name was used instead for a defensive scenario, in which the British were to defend against a Soviet drive towards the North Sea and the Atlantic following the withdrawal of the American forces from the continent.

The study became the first Cold War-era contingency plan for war with the Soviet Union.

what if this plan was put into action?


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Geon

Donor
Objectives and Nuclear Weapons

The Soviets didn't have nuclear weapons at this time so that would be a major advantage for the Allies.

Now I have heard different ideas on this subject.

One view says the Soviets were nearly exhausting their manpower reserves to get to Berlin. They were totally exhausted after almost 4 years of war and would have capitulated after the first few weeks.

The other view says the Soviets would have initially fallen back but would have recovered and eventually pushed back all the way to the Rhine, possibly as far as France itself before they were stopped.

Geon
 
Soviet Command Structure

The only way the Allies would be able to break up the numerically superior Soviet forces enough to defeat them would be to use nuclear weapons to destroy the Soviet command structure. This was the same plan NATO had up until the early 1980s.

The Allied armies in Germany at the end of the war were outnumbered by the Soviets about 4-to-1 and could have only had a chance defending against a Soviet invasion. Furthermore, the lack of a serious armored and mechanized force would have substantially hampered any Allied offensive, especially against an intact command structure.
 
The original plan was to be launched on July 1st, weeks before the first atomic test and as such did not incorporate nuclears weapons in any manner.

As to what happens? Well, assuming the troops don't flat out refuse to attack in what they'll view as a betrayal of a valiant ally, the WAllied forces gets torn to pieces attacking into the teeth of the numerically superior Soviets, with the counter-offensive seizing all of Western Germany and chasing the remnant Anglo-American forces back across the Rhine. The Anglo-American public, outraged over not just betraying what is regarded as a loyal ally but a betrayal which led to the butcher of their own people, force their governments to sue for peace toppling the Churchill Administration in the process. Stalin, not interested in another long war, accepts the peace treaty and milks this political advantage for all it's worth, obtaining significant territorial and economic concessions in the resulting peace deal. The whole thing goes down in history as a massive blunder and Truman, if he survives impeachment, likely loses the 1948 election because of it. The Soviets are given a massive new propaganda point for the subsequent Cold War.

Remember, wartime propaganda was making the Soviets out to be heroes and stalwart allies, and most people bought that. Even though the Western leadership was getting deeply suspicious of them it took several years of early Cold War antagonism for that to filter down to the populace.
 
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This is political suicide for the US and British leadership. They just got done wrapping up the most destructive war in history, now they're launching a sneak attack on a major ally? Neither the public nor the military would have tolerated this, and the architects of this scheme would have ended up in a padded room somewhere.

If there had been a fight under some circumstance, conventionally the Soviets would have been badly mauled, but the Allies would have been committed to another lengthy, bloody conflict with a major power. It would have been WWII and 1/2/
 
Millions more die in a stalemate before soldiers overthrow their goverments and sign peace. Hell, that may happen much earlier than that.
 
Unsettling

Soviets drive to Finisterre in Spain, available atomic bombs get used up, truce declared.

and then

"Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia."
 
Soviets drive to Finisterre in Spain, available atomic bombs get used up, truce declared.

and then

"Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia."

And now we know the backstory to 1984.

Getting to the topic of the thread, I think that even if the Western Allies were somehow able to persuade their armies that the USSR is the new enemy, and even if they were able to obliterate the Soviet command structure with their nukes, the Allies still have no way of winning against the numerically superior Soviet forces. Best case scenario, the Allies make their way to the USSR borders and both sides declare truce due to the sheer number of casualties in the conflict. Worst case scenario, Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

I don't see how Operation Unthinkable could produce a decisive victory for either side.
 
See also
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Western Allies are severely bloodied attacking, achieving minimal gains only to be driven from Germany by several fronts in a general counteroffensive and depending on how things unfold, maybe the Soviets get some more of Austria. As said above, Western Allied governments lose tons of support for attacking a stalwart ally. Churchill's government is toppled, Truman's as well. Nuclear weapons will only agitate the Soviets (if they're even available - most likely not) who have been fighting against a war of extermination for 4 years.
 
If there had been a fight under some circumstance, conventionally the Soviets would have been badly mauled, but the Allies would have been committed to another lengthy

If anyone's getting mauled under the standard Unthinkable scenario (WAllied attack), it will be the WAllies. Unlike the situation we were debating over on SB a couple of months back, it's the WAllies attacking into the teeth of Soviet forces and not vice-versa. This means their best option to avoid getting obliterated when the Soviets bring down the hammer (that is, to retreat out of the way of the bulk of the initial Soviet breakthrough firepower) isn't an option: you don't begin an offensive war by turning and running.

In terms of operational art... well, the WAllies don't even have a formalized concept of operational theory yet. Nor do they have remotely as much operational experience when it comes to ground warfare as the Soviets, so they have a crushing advantage at the operational level right at the outset. The Soviets all have the advantage in the critical realm of intelligence and deception: they have key agents in rather high-ranking positions in both the British and American governments as well as a quite thorough understanding of how the WAllies operate thanks to military missions. The WAllies have practically no understanding of how the Soviets operate and are overwhelmingly dependent on air reconnaissance and SIGINT for their intelligence gathering, both of which the Soviets are exceedingly skilled at fooling. Tactically and strategically the Anglo-Americans possess advantages, but the aforementioned superiority in Soviet operational art will negate the tactical ones and the unpopularity of the war means they will never have the time to bring the strategic ones to bear. In terms of their operations, the WAllies took excruciatingly long to get through German linear defenses even when they possessed monstrous numerical superiority over the enemy. Against Soviet defense-in-depth and numerical inferiority, their practically going to stall out from the get-go. Then the Soviet counter-offensive obliterates them.
 
If anyone's getting mauled under the standard Unthinkable scenario (WAllied attack), it will be the WAllies. Unlike the situation we were debating over on SB a couple of months back, it's the WAllies attacking into the teeth of Soviet forces and not vice-versa. This means their best option to avoid getting obliterated when the Soviets bring down the hammer (that is, to retreat out of the way of the bulk of the initial Soviet breakthrough firepower) isn't an option: you don't begin an offensive war by turning and running.

What hammer? Every time we have this discussion it always leads to the fact that the Soviets had no answer to Allied material superiority. Even in a situation when they are on the defensive they lack the national strength necessary to overcome the Allies and will inevitably be exhausted given the sudden removal of Lend-Lease and 9 million military deaths suffered up to that point. American losses up to that point, for instance, were less than 1/20th those of the Soviet military. Soviet 'breakthrough firepower' (that is, in the event of an organized attempt at a counteroffensive) would have amounted to a lovely target for Allied tactical air and counterbattery fire: Just ask the Germans and the Japanese. Unlike the British and Americans, Soviet bombardment doctrine was more First World War era in which large numbers of guns would be massed along the front to fire a prepared pattern over a given area. When the assault troops moved out, this support evaporated. Unlike the Allies, whose artillery was exclusively mechanized, the Red Army still relied on hundreds of thousands of horses for animal draft.

Nor do they have remotely as much operational experience when it comes to ground warfare as the Soviets, so they have a crushing advantage at the operational level right at the outset.

They have the experience of destroying the German Army in the West at a very favorable exchange rate compared with the Soviets. According to Overmans the Wehrmacht lost a total of more than 700,000 dead and missing there from D-Day to V-E Day, exclusive of wounded and captured. In the same time frame the Allies lost something under 200,000. This is compared to the 2 : 1 or better ratio the Germans enjoyed in the East, even toward the end of the war.

In terms of their operations, the WAllies took excruciatingly long to get through German linear defenses even when they possessed monstrous numerical superiority over the enemy.

Soviet willingness to push through an enemy defense at the cost of huge casualties doesn't equate to a superiority in piercing fixed defenses. The Allies were more cautious because they knew they could afford to be.

Against Soviet defense-in-depth and numerical inferiority, their practically going to stall out from the get-go.

Even if this rather idealistic situation takes place (given it assumes the Soviets will be ready), a short advance followed by a stalemate is as good as a defeat for the RKKA, because then it becomes a battle of attrition, a battle they're ill-prepared to fight against that kind of an opponent. They would lose several times more men, tanks, guns, and planes, than the Allies, and they would be outproduced several times over.

That being said, personally I think that an aggressive commander like Patton would have chewed up the Soviets before the supply situation and consolidation of defenses forced a halt.

Then the Soviet counter-offensive obliterates them.

Not going to happen. The Allies had a third more men facing the Russians than the Germans ever did, with more and better equipment and a vastly better state of supply.

You don't 'obliterate' an enemy who outguns you 10 to 1.
 
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What hammer? Every time we have this discussion it always leads to the fact that the Soviets had no answer to Allied material superiority.

What material superiority? The Soviets have twice the number of tanks, three-and-a-half times the number of artillery pieces (or, if we're exclusively talking about artillery in excess of 100mm, a just above 1:1 superiority), and four times the amount of combat infantry.

Even in a situation when they are on the defensive they lack the national strength necessary to overcome the Allies and will inevitably be exhausted given the sudden removal of Lend-Lease and 9 million military deaths suffered up to that point.

The national strength and manpower exhaustion only matter in a long war, which this will not be.

Soviet 'breakthrough firepower' (that is, in the event of an organized attempt at a counteroffensive) would have amounted to a lovely target for Allied tactical air and counterbattery fire

Tactical air that would be too busy dodging Soviet fighters* and American artillery would itself be too busy getting shelled too pieces by Soviet concentrations many times their own.

Just ask the Germans and the Japanese.

A great deal of the suppression of German and Japanese artillery was caused by shortages of ammunition rather then enemy fire. In the Ardennes, after the opening barrage on the first day, German guns were allowed only between four and thirty-two rounds each per day. One can get away with less thorough CB fire because there is little point in silencing guns that are already silent.

*And AA: the Soviets thoroughly outfitted their frontline forces with AA guns and the Vistula-Oder offensive saw AA concentrations on the order of 40 guns to the kilometer. Rear-area security area defense was handled mostly via camouflage and deception techniques which proved devastatingly effective against both the Germans and, over 50 years later in Serbia, against NATO.

Unlike the British and Americans, Soviet bombardment doctrine was more First World War era in which large numbers of guns would be massed along the front to fire a prepared pattern over a given area.

This is only true for 1941-42. Soviet artillery in the 1943-45 showed quite a rapid and extensive growth in sophistication. They cooperated closely with the infantry and were able to shift their fire with greater and greater flexibility. On top of that, doctrinally, artillery in the Soviet military was very much a branch of equal (if not higher) standing with armor and infantry and assigned it's own tasking of fighting the Germans in depth. By mid-1944, whole German battalions were being wiped out nearly to a man by Soviet opening bombardments. Quite literally, the first Soviet echelons simply walked over terrain composed of scorched earth and dead Germans. They never quite matched the Americans in tactical terms, but the Soviets superiority at rapidly shifting their artillery pieces on the operational level more then made up for it.

That they had trouble keeping up with the armies once the battles went mobile was hardly a Soviet exclusive problem: all armies found it difficult to get their arty to keep up with armies under such circumstances, even ones with large quantities of SPGs. The same also went for the ammunition trains: Anglo-American forces in September 1944 found themselves forced to use captured German shells on a few occasions because their own stretched supply lines weren't bringing in enough.

Although obviously this is in a much more modern context, it's worth noting that the Georgians, after they achieved picked up American artillery doctrine, dispersed operations, non-firing hide sites for ammunitions replenishment, shoot-and-scoot with SP pieces... and got thrashed by Russian counterbattery fire within two days. Which is especially noteworthy when you consider they had roughly equal numbers of artillery deployed.

In sum, the Soviets were definitely on top of things when it came to artillery by the end of the war and were the best when it came to using artillery at the operational level. Indeed, by 1945 those few senior U.S. artillery officers who had actually paid any attention to what was happening on the Eastern Front were calling for the creation of Soviet-style "artillery divisions" for their nondivisional artillery.

When the assault troops moved out, this support evaporated.

By which point, it wasn't necessary: enemy defenses had been destroyed and the battle had gone mobile, causing the importance of artillery to drop off enormously. The Germans in 1941-42 and the WAllies after they broke out of Normandy experienced the same thing, they just had flexible enough air support (and enemies anemic enough in the air to guarantee said air support would get through) to pick up the slack.

They have the experience of destroying the German Army in the West at a very favorable exchange rate compared with the Soviets.

In which they were fighting a force far less well-equipped, experienced, and led then the Red Army or even (adjusting for the equipment) the Heer from earlier in the war. And the Soviets achieved very favorable exchange rates in this period too.

According to Overmans the Wehrmacht lost a total of more than 700,000 dead and missing there from D-Day to V-E Day, exclusive of wounded and captured. In the same time frame the Allies lost something under 200,000. This is compared to the 2:1 or better ratio the Germans enjoyed in the East, even toward the end of the war.

Taken as a whole, the casualty ratio from mid-1943 to the end of 1944 was 1.5:1 in the Germans favor. In 1945, the ratio was 2:1 in the Soviets favor. In Operation Bagration, the Soviets inflicted ~300,000 irrecoverable losses upon the Germans in exchange for 180,040 of their own. At 2nd Jassey-Kishinev, the Soviets inflicted yet another ~215,000 irrecoverable German irrecoverable* (and yes, that is after I factor out Romanian losses) at the cost of 67,130 of their own. The Vistula-Oder irrecoverable losses were 110,000 to ~45,000 German and Soviet, respectively, using the more-generous-to-the-Germans estimate.

*Ballpark figure, as German loss records for Jassy-Kishinev do not actually exist. We do know that the 6th Army (~200,000 men) was literally wiped out to the last man, so there is an absolute minimum of ~200,000, and the 8th Army (~90,000) was shattered. I assumed "shattered" in this case to mean suffering ~75% casualties and then assumed that half were irrecoverable (which is probably optimistic, given the rapidity and thoroughness which the German front was shattered).

Soviet willingness to push through an enemy defense at the cost of huge casualties doesn't equate to a superiority in piercing fixed defenses.

They repeatedly did it much faster then the WAllies did and on a far more consistent basis.

The Allies were more cautious because they knew they could afford to be.

A reality not supported by the actual consistent tactical-operational performance of WAllied forces. Anglo-American forces were consistently slower in pressing the attack, even in instances where pressing the attack would have reduced their casualties, increased the enemies, and shortened the war (such as at Falaise or the Scheldt guarding Antwerp). Even their attempts at "bold" breakthroughs (Totalize, Market Garden, Metz, and so-on) bogged down into basically trying to claw their way through enemy defenses until something gave, if it gave. Compared to the Soviets, their operational planning for land battles (as opposed to amphibious, air, or naval ones) was absolutely inane and their operational maneuvers timid and clumsy. The only time they managed to achieve a encirclement comparable to the scale of those in the Eastern Front was when the Germans (save for some operationally irrelevant die-hards) practically stopped fighting and let them. Only Patton came close to matching late-war Soviet generals in these terms and even then he ultimately falls short in comparison: his maneuver of turning three divisions at the Ardennes 90 degrees in three days that stunned his AEF colleagues? In the RKKA, he would have been lambasted for taking three times as long as he should have. In the ultimate analysis, the WAllies fought an even more attritional war then the Soviets did and were inferior at maneuver warfare.

And this will be further reinforced by the demoralization of WAllied troops, who are going to be shocked and appalled at being ordered to fight people they regard as valiant allies. They will fight with very little enthusiasm and that lack of enthusiasm will only mount as the catastrophe unfolds.

Even if this rather idealistic situation takes place (given it assumes the Soviets will be ready),

It's practically guaranteed, given the gross Soviet intelligence superiority. The WAllied secrets during WW2 were thoroughly compromised by Soviet espionage.

a short advance followed by a stalemate is as good as a defeat for the RKKA,

It's more of a short WAllied advance, followed by a crushing Soviet counterblow which annihilates it. That would then magnify the outrage of the WAllied public.

That being said, personally I think that an aggressive commander like Patton would have chewed the hell out of the Soviets before the supply situation and consolidation of defenses forced a halt.

Patton would have neatly impaled himself on the massed, camouflaged anti-tank defenses the Soviets would have lined in his path in-depth and which the WAllies would not detect until they stumble into them.

You don't 'obliterate' an enemy who outguns you 10 to 1.

Good thing for the RKKA they aren't outgunned to that level and also enjoy a superiority in terms of that most important of military commodities: experience. As Patton observed: "Wars are fought with weapons but won by men."
 
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What material superiority? The Soviets have twice the number of tanks, three-and-a-half times the number of artillery pieces (or, if we're exclusively talking about artillery in excess of 100mm, a just above 1:1 superiority), and four times the amount of combat infantry.

Sources for figures? Because according to their own tabulation, overall strength circa 1 Jan 1945 was as follows:

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Strength at the front was 120 thousand artillery pieces, 21 thousand aircraft, 12,500 tanks and assault guns, 390 thousand vehicles, and 7 million men. According to the links posted in impervious incarnations of this debate, the Western Front (exclusive of Italy) had 4.5 million men (I'll need a citation for a 4:1 advantage in combat personnel, never saw that figure once in the original documents), 28,000 planes, 42,000 guns for the Americans alone (probably well over 60,000 overall), close on a million vehicles, and 11,000 tanks and TDs in US service alone (again, probably more than 15,000 overall). Materially the existing forces were either equivalent or pointed decisively in favor of the Allies. The only advantage the USSR has in terms of numbers is their tubes, and as you pointed out most were small-caliber 76mm type.

The national strength and manpower exhaustion only matter in a long war, which this will not be.

If we're going to be realistic such a war would never have taken place. Had the USSR uncovered such a plan they would have just revealed it to the world and let the public outrage do the rest.


Tactical air that would be too busy dodging Soviet fighters* and American artillery would itself be too busy getting shelled too pieces by Soviet concentrations many times their own.

1. The mere presence of enemy aircraft will not prevent surface strikes. Even at Okinawa where the IJNAS and IJAAF had been reduced to a kamikaze force against the most formidable naval air force in the world plus the USN fleet AAA they were still able to break through and inflict over 10,000 casualties on US sailors. With the world's best air forces flying against... not the world's best air force, the Red Army will still be taking punishment from the air.

2. The Allies had a massive advantage in level bombers, bombers of the type that vaporized Panzer Lehr at the start of Operation Cobra. These are immune to the 37mm AA guns that comprised the majority of Soviet air defenses.


This is only true for 1941-42. Soviet artillery in the 1943-45 showed quite a rapid and extensive growth in sophistication. They cooperated closely with the infantry and were able to shift their fire with greater and greater flexibility. On top of that, doctrinally, artillery in the Soviet military was very much a branch of equal (if not higher) standing with armor and infantry and assigned it's own tasking of fighting the Germans in depth. By mid-1944, whole German battalions were being wiped out nearly to a man by Soviet opening bombardments. Quite literally, the first Soviet echelons simply walked over terrain composed of scorched earth and dead Germans. They never quite matched the Americans in tactical terms, but the Soviets superiority at rapidly shifting their artillery pieces on the operational level more then made up for it.

That they had trouble keeping up with the armies once the battles went mobile was hardly a Soviet exclusive problem: all armies found it difficult to get their arty to keep up with armies under such circumstances, even ones with large quantities of SPGs. The same also went for the ammunition trains: Anglo-American forces in September 1944 found themselves forced to use captured German shells on a few occasions because their own stretched supply lines weren't bringing in enough.

At the end of the war there were 11 million tons of surplus ammunition scattered throughout Europe. There were 'shortages' at times, yes, but shortages only by Western standards.

Although obviously this is in a much more modern context, it's worth noting that the Georgians, after they achieved picked up American artillery doctrine, dispersed operations, non-firing hide sites for ammunitions replenishment, shoot-and-scoot with SP pieces... and got thrashed by Russian counterbattery fire within two days. Which is especially noteworthy when you consider they had roughly equal numbers of artillery deployed.

Still a limited exercise: under such a line of thought I can bring up the 6 Day War as a counterexample because the Arabs were ostensibly using Soviet doctrine and were obliterated by the inferior Israelis.

In sum, the Soviets were definitely on top of things when it came to artillery by the end of the war and were the best when it came to using artillery at the operational level. Indeed, by 1945 those few senior U.S. artillery officers who had actually paid any attention to what was happening on the Eastern Front were calling for the creation of Soviet-style "artillery divisions" for their nondivisional artillery.

Though even with better doctrine, they would have to fight through waves of steel, rockets, and bombs. The Axis countries knew this lesson well, but were powerless to do anything about it.


Taken as a whole, the casualty ratio from mid-1943 to the end of 1944 was 1.5:1 in the Germans favor. In 1945, the ratio was 2:1 in the Soviets favor. In Operation Bagration, the Soviets inflicted ~300,000 irrecoverable losses upon the Germans in exchange for 180,040 of their own. At 2nd Jassey-Kishinev, the Soviets inflicted yet another ~215,000 irrecoverable German irrecoverable* (and yes, that is after I factor out Romanian losses) at the cost of 67,130 of their own. The Vistula-Oder irrecoverable losses were 110,000 to ~45,000 German and Soviet, respectively, using the more-generous-to-the-Germans estimate.

*Ballpark figure, as German loss records for Jassy-Kishinev do not actually exist. We do know that the 6th Army (~200,000 men) was literally wiped out to the last man, so there is an absolute minimum of ~200,000, and the 8th Army (~90,000) was shattered. I assumed "shattered" in this case to mean suffering ~75% casualties and then assumed that half were irrecoverable (which is probably optimistic, given the rapidity and thoroughness which the German front was shattered).

Seems like a vast exaggeration. Glantz puts the casualties at a minimum of 450,000 for the Germans and something on the order of 800,000 for the Soviets. For Jassey-Kishinev, this Russian source (http://wwii-soldat.narod.ru/OPER/ARTICLES/027-kishenev.htm) puts Axis losses at 135,000 killed and wounded and 208,600 prisoners. Krivosheev gives Soviet losses as 67,130 including 13,197 dead. That's including Romanians and with the internal coup against Antonescu to boot.

They repeatedly did it much faster then the WAllies did and on a far more consistent basis.

With more body bags in the process.

A reality not supported by the actual consistent tactical-operational performance of WAllied forces. Anglo-American forces were consistently slower in pressing the attack, even in instances where pressing the attack would have reduced their casualties, increased the enemies, and shortened the war (such as at Falaise or the Scheldt guarding Antwerp).

To be fair, that was often a matter of British-American squabbling and or caution on the part of Montgomery or even Bradley than it was a matter of Army doctrine. They were frustrating moments, but they were to be expected under such a command structure. This was a headache the Soviets never had to worry about.

Even their attempts at "bold" breakthroughs (Totalize, Market Garden, Metz, and so-on)

Those are some rather disingenuous comparisons. Totalize was conducted by green troops during a time when the Allies' best experience against the Germans on the Field Army level had been in the mountainous Italian peninsula. They came into Normandy expecting a WWI type fight and were rather surprised when the battle turned mobile.

Likewise, Market Garden was an airborne operation, and Metz was a fortress that was just bypassed and reduced. The initial moves against it were not a "bold" breakthrough attempt, rather probing assaults followed by a methodical battle. In situations where the Soviets encountered similar opposition it played out similarly.


Only Patton came close to matching late-war Soviet generals in these terms and even then he ultimately falls short in comparison: his maneuver of turning three divisions at the Ardennes 90 degrees in three days that stunned his AEF colleagues? In the RKKA, he would have been lambasted for taking three times as long as he should have. In the ultimate analysis, the WAllies fought an even more attritional war then the Soviets did and were inferior at maneuver warfare.

I think we've been here before: The Americans were able to move 250,000 men and 50,000 vehicles laterally down their line in the space of a week. Where and when did the Red Army have a similar feat to its credit?

followed by a crushing Soviet counterblow which annihilates it.

The relative states of logistics state otherwise...

Good thing for the RKKA they aren't outgunned to that level and also enjoy a superiority in terms of that most important of military commodities: experience. As Patton observed: "Wars are fought with weapons but won by men."

Man for man, the Germans and Japanese were generally regarded as better fighters than their Allied opponents, if not more experienced.

And then they met firepower.
 
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Huh, I didn't get the alert for your post. Weird. Well, being bored at a wedding party is probably a good enough time to reply.

Sources for figures?

Operational Unthinkable: Russia, A Threat to Western Civilization by the British General Staff in 1945.

The only advantage the USSR has in terms of numbers is their tubes, and as you pointed out most were small-caliber 76mm type.

Modest quibble, but by this point the ZiS-3 wasn't the only Soviet field gun. They had manufactured and distributed large quantities of 85mm and 100mm field guns as well. And all these weapons proved to be devastatingly effective artillery pieces with some notable advantages of their own. And there are a lot of them.

In anycase, the number of Soviet tubes with caliber of 101mm or more is roughly equal to that of the WAllies.

If we're going to be realistic such a war would never have taken place. Had the USSR uncovered such a plan they would have just revealed it to the world and let the public outrage do the rest.

True enough, and if their own populaces opinion weren't such a problem then the US and UK would win a multi-year war against the USSR, if at the cost of millions of their young men's lives.

1. The mere presence of enemy aircraft will not prevent surface strikes.Even at Okinawa where the IJNAS and IJAAF had been reduced to a kamikaze force against the most formidable naval air force in the world plus the USN fleet AAA they were still able to break through and inflict over 10,000 casualties on US sailors. With the world's best air forces flying against... not the world's best air force, the Red Army will still be taking punishment from the air.

Punishment, yes. But nothing the Soviets haven't experienced before and been unable to keep going. Unlike in the West, the Luftwaffe in the east manages to keep itself together right up to the last battles of the war and hence were something the Soviets always had to factor into their operational planning. What it does do is reduce the damage so much as to make what does get through eminently manageable and have little impact on the course of operations.

To use your own example: despite inflicting 10,000 casualties on the Americans, the kamikazes failed to achieve anything of actual military value to the Japanese or affect the course of the battle.

2. The Allies had a massive advantage in level bombers, bombers of the type that vaporized Panzer Lehr at the start of Operation Cobra. These are immune to the 37mm AA guns that comprised the majority of Soviet air defenses.

And which inflicted so much friendly fire (not only in Cobra, but also in British ops) that Eisenhower swore off using heavy bombers in direct troop support ever again. And that was against semi-linear positions under static conditions. Under mobile conditions their just as likely to bomb their own troops wholesale.

That aside, Soviet non-divisional AA regiments and battalions, of which the Soviets had some ~500 in Europe alone, also possessed an average of 16 and 12 (respectively) 85mm FlaK guns.

At the end of the war there were 11 million tons of surplus ammunition scattered throughout Europe. There were 'shortages' at times, yes, but shortages only by Western standards.

The 1st Belorussian Fronts artillery ammo stocks for the Battle of Berlin alone consist of 7.1 million shells.

Still a limited exercise: under such a line of thought I can bring up the 6 Day War as a counterexample because the Arabs were ostensibly using Soviet doctrine and were obliterated by the inferior Israelis.

While you are correct about the Georgia example being a limited example, your attempt at a counter-example is rather poor. Arab armies have proven horrendously incompetent against non-Arab forces regardless of whose doctrine or equipment they are using.

Though even with better doctrine, they would have to fight through waves of steel, rockets, and bombs. The Axis countries knew this lesson well, but were powerless to do anything about it.

But the Soviets can do quite a lot about it with their own artillery, air power, and maeneuverability for at least the first year.

Seems like a vast exaggeration. Glantz puts the casualties at a minimum of 450,000 for the Germans and something on the order of 800,000 for the Soviets.

For which one? And I was counting irrecoverable losses, not total casualties.

For Jassey-Kishinev, this Russian source (http://wwii-soldat.narod.ru/OPER/ARTICLES/027-kishenev.htm) puts Axis losses at 135,000 killed and wounded and 208,600 prisoners. Krivosheev gives Soviet losses as 67,130 including 13,197 dead. That's including Romanians and with the internal coup against Antonescu to boot.

Seems rather inconsistent with the stated manpower strength of the 6th Army and what was stated to be its fate. I'll look into it some more.

With more body bags in the process.

That's the cost you pay. If you increase operational tempos, you keep the enemy on the back foot, destroy more of his forces, and get things done faster but you take more casualties. If you don't move as fast, you give your enemy the time they need to react, preserve more of his forces, and drag things out but you don't lose as many men.

To be fair, that was often a matter of British-American squabbling and or caution on the part of Montgomery or even Bradley than it was a matter of Army doctrine. They were frustrating moments, but they were to be expected under such a command structure. This was a headache the Soviets never had to worry about.

And such caution is precisely what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter how fast your doctrine says you should go if your men aren't willing to move that fast. It's a headache that isn't going to go away against the Red Army any more then it did against the Heer.

Those are some rather disingenuous comparisons. Totalize was conducted by green troops during a time when the Allies' best experience against the Germans on the Field Army level had been in the mountainous Italian peninsula. They came into Normandy expecting a WWI type fight and were rather surprised when the battle turned mobile.

Totalize was explicitly an attempt at planning and executing, to quote Montgomery, "a Russian-style breakthrough" to which he was referring to the Soviet advances across Eastern Europe during the summer of 44.

Likewise, Market Garden was an airborne operation,

If one ignores that it depended entirely on a rapid overland assault by 30th Corps to succeed. The overland assault was anything but rapid and this doomed the entire effort.

Metz was a fortress that was just bypassed and reduced.

I suppose my words were unclear there, but I was referring to 3rd Army's Operations through most of autumn '44 rather then the assault on Metz specifically. There the 3rd Army was repeatedly checked by a combination of German resistance and logistical problems despite Patton's best efforts to keep things mobile (including the hijacking of fuel shipments to adjacent armies).

I said "Metz" as a temporal-geographic shorthand, but I can see how you took it the way you did.

I think we've been here before: The Americans were able to move 250,000 men and 50,000 vehicles laterally down their line in the space of a week. Where and when did the Red Army have a similar feat to its credit?

Pretty much all over the place from 1943 on. The Soviet breakout from the D'nieper involved the transfer of multiple armies totaling a similar amount of men to what you cited from one bridgehead the Germans had firmly secured to another over the course of 3-4 days. During Operation Bagration, they moved 3,500 artillery pieces which, given that Soviet non-divisional artillery units and formations appeared to have a ratio of 20-30 men per piece, translates into 70,000-105,000 men from one end of Belarus to the other in a single day. For August Storm, the Soviets marched four-five armies across a trackless desert and mountain range in 3-days. All of these were operations were carried out over greater distances, rougher terrain, and worse infrastructure (in the specific case of August Storm, no infrastructure).

And these are the examples I can name off the top of my head. The Soviets very frequently had to move multiple armies laterally across their frontline over large distances in short amounts of time in order to sustain their operational tempos and keep the Germans off balance. As a result, they became very good at doing this.

The relative states of logistics state otherwise...

The Soviets supported massive armored forces over much larger geographic areas and much poorer infrastructure then anything the WAllies enjoyed. Like most military arenas, logistics is about more then equipment. In the specific terms of Central Europe, neither side will actually possess a notable edge in logistics for the initial stage of the war.

Tell that to them:

Yeah, the guys who held up the WAllies far longer then compatriots of theirs of a similar level of training and equipment generally managed to hold up the Red Army under similar circumstances. The Panzer Lehr example you cited earlier? Held up the Anglo-Americans for three days and a core contingent still managed to escape to fight another day. I like to compare the fate of the Lehr in Normandy with the fate of an SS Panzer division (I can't remember the precise number) deployed to halt the Red Army during Bagration. It was the same strength as the Lehr in terms of men and equipment was at the start of Normandy, was outfitted similarly to the Lehr, and was of a similar standard of training and motivation to the Lehr. Even the terrain it deployed to in July was comparable: a particularly dense region of Belarussian woods. Not quite as tough as the hedgerows, but as I said, close enough to be comparable. They had more time to prepare for the Soviets then the Lehr did... Lehr was thrown into battle from the start whereas the SS Panzer had a day before they made contact with lead elements of the 5th Guards Tank Army.

Lehr remained combat effective for two months and managed to escape the Falaise encirclement to rally and participate in the defense of the Reich.

That SS Panzer division suffered 90% casualties and was driven from its position in a few days. The routing remnants found a Soviet tank brigade on their line of retreat and were wiped out.
 
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