Operation Sledgehammer goes through.

What if Operation Sledgehammer was carried out in Autumn 1942 and the Allies landed on mainland Europe and actually manage to take Cherbourg and the rest of the Contentin peninsula(with whatever they needed to do that, the maximum amount they could gather in that time)and then waited out.

I think its widely understood that this would utterly fail and mean the loss of many men and supplies, extending the war on the Western fronts.

What would happen in Europe? I'm especially interested in the future of Barbarossa(would the Germans break earlier or would they receive reinforcements now that the threath from the West is less?), the future abilities of the UK and USA in Northern Africa(also that of Vichy France without Torch) and the effect of an Italy who's defeat is prolonged.
 
Sledgehammer would have been tried if there was a serious problem on the eastern front so I think you should analyze it in the context of an eastern front collapse. In such a scenario it is even more likely that it would have failed. If Germany defeated the Soviet Union I think the United States and Great Britain would have been forced to accept a status quo Europe.
 

ccdsah

Donor
Sledgehammer would have been tried if there was a serious problem on the eastern front so I think you should analyze it in the context of an eastern front collapse. In such a scenario it is even more likely that it would have failed. If Germany defeated the Soviet Union I think the United States and Great Britain would have been forced to accept a status quo Europe.

At least until the nukes come online - then it's instant sunrise over Berlin
 
Or they get the Anthrax ready.

The British, as the main target of the German retaliation will not be really much keen to start Operation Vegetarian if not as a last resort.
And regarding nuke Germany, well this is not TBO and before you can do that you must destroy the Nazi AA defense system who unlike japan will be still on place and Great Britain will face a second blitz.
 
Sledgehammer would have been tried if there was a serious problem on the eastern front so I think you should analyze it in the context of an eastern front collapse. In such a scenario it is even more likely that it would have failed. If Germany defeated the Soviet Union I think the United States and Great Britain would have been forced to accept a status quo Europe.

Early turn towards Stalingrad and capture of the entire city by fall 1942. German advance into Caucasus in late 1942, Soviet counteroffensive beaten back.
 
Sledgehammer would have been tried if there was a serious problem on the eastern front so I think you should analyze it in the context of an eastern front collapse. In such a scenario it is even more likely that it would have failed. If Germany defeated the Soviet Union I think the United States and Great Britain would have been forced to accept a status quo Europe.

if the Eastern front goes differently and is actually collapsing, then i guess, or until they get nukes, but most likey the Germans would have never gotten to thier goal, the "A-A" line (Archangelsk-Astrakhan) at the Urals and believe it or not, Hitler mostly likely would let that stop the War because he needed the War to be able to get away with his darkest, evil plans.
 
Lets say the Germans do better around Leningrad in 1941 (there are many possible PODs and the Soviets just barely held supply open to the place OTL, lets say Mainstien's 56th panzer corps isn't held on the Dvina river early on).

So Leningrad falls in January 1942, with much suffering to the population (more than OTL), to a tighter Winter seige. This ends all arguments and the western allies agree they must do something dramatic to help the Soviets in the Summer of 1942 or face the prospect of defeating the Nazis alone (now with hindsight we know the Soviets aren't really that much worse off than OTL, but people are worried about it at the time and the Soviets are trying to encourage a second front anyway).

So Sledgehammer goes ahead in August 1942, just as the German Summer campaign in the east is at its peak.

If the Allies managed to establish themselves in France with a few divisions and Hitler reacts badly (occupying Vichy France or blowing the threat all out of proportion, evacuating a couple of panzer corps and 400 planes from the eastern front, then the Allies probably have done themselves some good, especially if they can evacuate most before the going gets too tough.

However if the Germans just block the Allies in with whatever they already have on the western front, and the Allies have to cancel Torch because they have used up their reserves of landing craft and men here, the Allies have done themselves much worse.
 
The British, as the main target of the German retaliation will not be really much keen to start Operation Vegetarian if not as a last resort.

If they're happy to face the brunt of retaliation after Nuking Germany, they shouldn't mind it after Anthraxing Germany. Although in both scenarios it's doubtful how successful any German retaliation would be, you'd probably see something similar to OTL's Baby Blitz.
 
If they're happy to face the brunt of retaliation after Nuking Germany, they shouldn't mind it after Anthraxing Germany. Although in both scenarios it's doubtful how successful any German retaliation would be, you'd probably see something similar to OTL's Baby Blitz.

Well the German have their good share of chemical weapons so they will respond in kind and in this case even the Baby Blitz can be enough
 
Well almost all comments suggest it will only happen if the USSR is fully defeated. THis of ocurse doesn't have to happen. Like Catspoke said they need to have the idea that they need to do it.

WHat about Operation Overlord then? I am sure the Germans would reinforce Normandy better for any future attacks.
 
Well the German have their good share of chemical weapons so they will respond in kind and in this case even the Baby Blitz can be enough

Depends what you mean by 'enough', historically the Baby Blitz resulted in 1,556 Britons killed, with 2,916 seriously injured in exchange for large Luftwaffe losses of men and material. Whether the Germans are using conventional or chemical weapons, it won't really matter if they can't reach their targets.
 
Well almost all comments suggest it will only happen if the USSR is fully defeated.

A German collapse is more likely to result in Sledgehammer being carried out, proceeding after a Soviet collapse was largely ruled out after it was concluded that an Allied invasion in 1942 wouldn't even lead to any German forces being redirected from the Eastern Front.
 
Does Sledgehammer in 1942 have a chance of success? OTLs Dieppe was close to a disaster, the Luftwaffe is not broken in 1942, Allied troops are mostly green and the Uboats are still quite active. How are the Allies supposed to pull this off?
 
However if the Germans just block the Allies in with whatever they already have on the western front, and the Allies have to cancel Torch because they have used up their reserves of landing craft and men here, the Allies have done themselves much worse.

If Sledgehammer happens, the cancellation of Torch has already happened. Torch was the back up plan to Sledgehammer because FDR wanted the US fighting the Germans somewhere before the November elections. Any forces used for Torch would utilized instead of Sledgehammer.

Torch used 2 US armored divisions and 4 US infantry divisions and elements of 1 British division.

Sledgehammer was intended earlier in autumn when only 2-3 US divisions would have been available. The British were expected to provide about 6 Divisions.

If we combine the two forces for an attack in November, Sledgehammer would have about 12 divisions total. German forces in the West were around 25 divisions. I am not sure how many of them are effective fighting divisions as opposed to lower quality garrison formations. While the Allied beachhead could be built up to additional divisions, the Germans probably have enough to contain it, if not eliminate it entirely given enough time.

It should be noted that there is unlikley to be a Soviet collapse that the West feared and Hitler desired. The Soviet state was much more stable than Hitler thought, and the Red Army quickly changed from the opponents the Wehrmacht faced in early summer 1941. There could be much worse news in 1942 that might prompt Sledgehammer - say Leningrad falls as well as Sevastapol, and a better Case Blue means Stalingard is seized early and the Germans have defensible lines on the Volga that would prevent Saturn and continue to advance into the Caucasus. Red Army sees no effective counterattack is possible, and it sends Stalin into despair, and he issues all sorts of panicky communiques to the Allies and even asks for the British to send troops into the south Caucasus so that Baku is held. Let's even say that Moscow fell in 1941, and the Soviet government is based in Kubyishev as well. That might prompt Sledgehammer to go through, but the Soviet Union will still be in the fight.

Being trapped on the Contentin Penninsula is not a good position for the Allies to be in. The US really needs to work out a whole lot of things, and France is not the ideal place to do it because they can't afford too many mistakes. North Africa, Sicily, and Italy are places where the US can make many mistakes and still win.
 

Hyperion

Banned
It could never even be attempted in 1942.

The overwhelming majority of troops involved would be British, Canadian, and smaller number of Free French, Polish, and a handful of other Commonwealth units.

The US, depending on when in 1942, might be able to get a division or two at best available. Maybe a third division if they gut and deactivate half a dozen or so other divisions forming stateside.

Add to that in 1942 the Luftwaffe was still a deadly force to contend with over the continent, U-boats where still a major threat to contend with as well, and quite a few German army formations that had been weakened or written off even by 1944 are still going to be in relatively good strenght.

Not to mention the RAF and USAAF will have have done damage to German industrial and logistics centers as they had by 1944 in OTL, so redeploying troops to France to counter an invasion in 1942 is going to be much, much easier, what with better transportation available, and the sky not being dominated by allied aircraft with little to no Luftwaffe as in OTL by 1944.
 
Sledgehammer in '42?

I think we have to look at the effect on Torch, El Alamein, & Guadalcanal. Pulling off Sledgehammer is gonna take everything we've got, so let's see what that is.

1st of all, Torch has gotta be cancelled. You can do Sledgehammer or you can do Torch-- you can't do both.

2d, instead of sending the 1st Marine Div. to Guadalcanal we'll have to use it in Sledgehammer. 2d Marine Div. is spread out garrisoning American Samoa, California, & Iceland, so we can gather it together & use it too. A bde. in American Samoa is no more gonna be able to defend Samoa than the troops on Wake & Guam were, & by 1942 the threat to Iceland is pretty much over. Replace the 6th Marine Rgt. up there with a Nat'l. Gd. unit.

...and 3d, reinforcements slated for Monty in Egypt will have to be diverted to support Sledgehammer. There's just no way around this, because U.S. forces won't be able to carry the ball themselves.

It does us absolutely no good to invade Europe unless we can at least defend what we take, & that's gonna require literally everything we've got.

The 1st Armd. Div. arrived in England in May of '42, but contrary to popular belief the entire 2d Armd. Div. didn't go into combat until Sicily in the summer of '43. Only certain elements of the 2d Armd. Div. took part in Torch, so maybe a rgt. or two will be available for Sledgehammer-- we'll say the 66th Armd. &/or the 41st Armd. Inf. The 1st Armd. Div. will provide support.

In addition the 509th PIR arrived in England in early '42, the 1st ID arrived in Aug., & we've got the 2 Marine divs. That's it. All other U.S. combat formations are still in training. If we slip the invasion date into late Sept. then we might get 1 more U.S. inf. div., but with the other Allies we aren't that short of inf.

To these forces we can add maybe the Brit. 6th Armd Div., the Canadian 1st Armd. Div. (equipped with stuff diverted from the Murmansk convoys), from 4 to 6 Anglo-Canadian inf. divs., a div. of Poles, maybe a div. or so of Free French, & roughly a mixed div. of Belgians & Dutch.

3 armd. & a maximum of around 3 U.S., 4 to 6 Anglo-Canadian, & 3 other Allied inf. divs. 13 to 15 divs. total-- & that's scraping the barrel. Against ~25 Wehrmacht divs. with substantial Luftwaffe support, I see a stalemate as the best possible result. You'll probably get a stalemate in the air, & you've got a slight edge in armor (3 armd. divs. vs 2), so you might be able to defend 1 or 2 ports along the Channel-- for a little while-- but you've got nothing to penetrate & exploit with. You'll be hanging on with your fingernails, & with no reserves whatsoever.

To achieve this you've diverted Monty's reinforcements, so El Alamein becomes a stalemate at best. At worst you've lost Egypt & opened up the Middle East to invasion, with their pro-German populations. You've written off Torch, so Rommel has no one in his rear threatening to cut off his supply. If he crosses the Suez then you could face a disaster in the Middle East, with pro-German Arabs rising up against small Brit garrisons.

You've also had to give the Japs a free hand in the SW. Pacific. They've already lost the battle of Midway, so their long-range strategic power projection is compromised, forcing them to focus on short-range gains. Their air base on Guadalcanal now threatens Allied supply into Australia. The Kokoda Track Campaign took place between July & Nov. 1942, & if it goes differently because the Japs now don't have to divert troops & supplies to Guadalcanal, then Port Moresby is lost. A Jap airbase at Port Moresby brings all of NE. Australia within bombing range & protects both Rabaul & the Solomons. Australia is too huge to be conquered, much less occupied, but this would largely neutralize it.

I see Hitler cancelling his drive on Stalingrad in order to shorten his lines. It's also possible that instead of continuing to tie down troops trying to starve Leningrad into surrender, he'll order an assault which will most likely succeed. In Leningrad by this time they didn't have much left to fight with. He'll do these things in order to conserve forces to wipe out the Allied lodgements in France, which will be planned for the winter of '42-43.

Whether he succeeds or not-- & he probably will-- this works to Hitler's strong advantage. He'll eliminate the bleeding ulcer of Leningrad, tying down nearly a quarter of his army; & he won't lose over half a million men in Stalingrad that winter.

By transferring troops Hitler will almost certainly be able to eliminate the Allied bridgeheads-- so yeah, you get Dunkirk v.2; but the big question is, can Russia use this diversion to turn the tables against Germany? I think there'll be some limited gains made, but I don't see a big strategic reversal here on the Eastern Front.

Here's why :
Sledgehammer in '42 achieves something that the German generals tried to do for the entire war & never succeeded in. It gets Hitler into a defensive deployment on the Eastern Front. By deploying defensively & forcing the Russians to come to them, I think the Wehrmacht does even better than in OTL, & maybe Hitler will learn a valuable lesson that'll enable him to prolong the war for 2 or 3 more years.

So overall, I think that Sledgehammer in '42 works to the German advantage on almost every level.

--Thegn.
 
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