Operation Sealion succeeds...

Personally I think that the Royal Naval could have been dealt with to allow for Operation Sea Lion if and only if the Luftwaffe had obtained absolute air superiority.

The Stuka, if it didn't have to worry about Enemy fighters, could essentially have made the English Channel a grave yard for any RN ships that entered it. Combine that with mine laying and submarines, and I think the Royal Navy would neutralized quite effectively.

That of course does not change the fact that the Germans never got air superiority and it doesn't change the fact that their forces were not well equipped or trained for amphibious operations. The allies, particularly the Americans, had a lot of experience in amphibious operations by 1944 and still had an awfully hard time pulling D-Day off.

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Bill
 

Churchill

Banned
Personally I think that the Royal Naval could have been dealt with to allow for Operation Sea Lion if and only if the Luftwaffe had obtained absolute air superiority.

The Stuka, if it didn't have to worry about Enemy fighters, could essentially have made the English Channel a grave yard for any RN ships that entered it. Combine that with mine laying and submarines, and I think the Royal Navy would neutralized quite effectively.

That of course does not change the fact that the Germans never got air superiority and it doesn't change the fact that their forces were not well equipped or trained for amphibious operations. The allies, particularly the Americans, had a lot of experience in amphibious operations by 1944 and still had an awfully hard time pulling D-Day off.

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Bill

I too think the Royal Navy (North Sea based) could have been destroyed by the German Airforce even without air superiority.
The main German problem even if that was acheived is still how to get German heavy equipment and supplies across to England.
Which is what makes it impossible.
 
I don't really think that Germans could destroy the Royal Navy without air superiority. Naval warfare in the Pacific suggests that the Stuka as the only aircraft that the Luftwaffe had that really would be suited to the anti-ship role. Without air superiority, they likely would have been torn apart by RAF fighters.

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Bill
 
Even assuming Hitler overcomes all of Germany's operational disadvantages and successfully invades Great Britain, the resulting insurgency is going to play hell with occupying it and draw resources Germany needs elsewhere. An invasion of Great Britain may be the one thing that draws the USA out of neutrality vis a vis Europe, particularly by 1941 (especially if Japan still decides to attack as per OTL).
 
Even assuming Hitler overcomes all of Germany's operational disadvantages and successfully invades Great Britain, the resulting insurgency is going to play hell with occupying it and draw resources Germany needs elsewhere. An invasion of Great Britain may be the one thing that draws the USA out of neutrality vis a vis Europe, particularly by 1941 (especially if Japan still decides to attack as per OTL).

I find it hard to believe a British insurgency would be that hard to quell. Despite rhetorics I find it hard to believe that British political leadership or the public would have the will to turn the island into a graveyard. Britain is no Yugoslavia with deep mountain ranges and independent farmers. It was, if not the most then at least one of the most, industrialized societies on Earth, much more developed in many respects than Germany.

What I could see would be similar resistance movement as in France, ie. collection of intelligence, perhaps some quite random terror acts and finally, only when liberation forces were arriving, some armed action.

And of course ultimately, even if UK had a significant insurrection the Wehrmacht and SS would be able to use brutal means to quell it.

The other aspect is the US neutrality. If, instead of Barbarossa Hitler decides to invade Britain during Summer of 1941 a US declaration of war against Germany would have great moral significance, but would it have an effect upon the actual campaign? The amount of troops the US could send would be very small. USAAC wasn't that hot and even the USN carrier air wings were equipped with aircraft inferior to Germans. USN surface ships would be as good as in OTL, though.

But let's say Britain is sufficiently smashed by the end of 1941. What benefits are there for Germany for the summer campaign in 1942 against Soviet Union?

Following come to my mind:
-Trucks, a lot of them, from British civilian and military stock
-Lack of need to provide significant air defence of Germany
-Much merchant shipping for logistics, ability to use Mediterranean and the Black Sea as a supply route
-British industrial capacity. Even if sabotage has a deletorious effect, the industrial capacity could be used to produce consumer goods for German market
-Access (barring US intervention) to the world market for raw materials and export
-Depending upon situation in the Middle East, possibility of using air bases to deal with Soviet oil production, perhaps even Turkish participation which would mean:
a) Easy access through Dardanelles to use Black Sea as logistics route. This would mean the whole logistics setup would change as Germans would have ability to use Ukrainian and Caucasian harbors not only for supplies transported through inland European waterway and railroad routes, but also for goods shipped directly from Germany
b) Ability to strike to the Caucasus from the outset, cutting Soviet oil production
c) Potential use of Caspian Sea for follow-up operations with specially designed light craft

Naturally even a truce would bring much of the same advantages for Germany. But in sum, I think these advantages would turn the tide in favor of Germany.
 
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But let's say Britain is sufficiently smashed by the end of 1941. What benefits are there for Germany for the summer campaign in 1942 against Soviet Union?

Following come to my mind:
-snip-

Naturally even a truce would bring much of the same advantages for Germany. But in sum, I think these advantages would turn the tide in favor of Germany.
Many of the industrial and world economic advantages you list only apply if Britain does not, for instance:

at the last minute give stewardship of it's Empire over to the US, until such time as Britain is free once again.

Yes, unlikely I know, but so is the whole setup.

Slightly more likely is that Britain hands leadership over to some other Commonwealth member, such as Canada, along with sending what remains of the fleet there in order to keep it out of German hands. The latter was always, supposedly, Churchill's plan should Britain fall.
Maybe he tags along for the ride, to lead the "Free British" government... :D
 
Many of the industrial and world economic advantages you list only apply if Britain does not, for instance:

at the last minute give stewardship of it's Empire over to the US, until such time as Britain is free once again.

Yes, unlikely I know, but so is the whole setup.

Slightly more likely is that Britain hands leadership over to some other Commonwealth member, such as Canada, along with sending what remains of the fleet there in order to keep it out of German hands. The latter was always, supposedly, Churchill's plan should Britain fall.
Maybe he tags along for the ride, to lead the "Free British" government... :D

Yup, I'm not saying a Sealion-1941 would have been a success, merely that in 1941 the actual chances would have been better.

Considering that after Op Sealion the next thing to do is Op Barbarossa, I think perhaps the greatest advantage would be the chance to do the greatest car robbery ever. Historically French trucks were very important for Barbarossa, but British trucks were far more numerous as, AFAIK, British society was much more "automobilized" in 1939 than French one.

One should also consider that despite talks of the British Empire the clear jewel of the crown, so to speak, were the British Isles which had the vast bulk of Empire industries and manpower, although not the resources. Britain itself would have been both a tremendous prize for Germany, and even if it's industry could not have been well exploited, mere denial of it's services to the enemy would have been significant.

As for the Royal Navy, if we consider a setup in which RN has escaped across the ocean to Americas, it will be very hard for it to have an effect upon Europe. RN units can raid European coasts but it will be hard due to German air superiority which RN carrier force cannot match. RN can proceed with a sub campaign against European coastal traffic but the subs are not that numerous. Even more importantly, without the industrial capacity of Britain whole production lines would have to devised in Canada (or the US) to supply the fleet with spare parts et cetera or to modify the fleet to use US ordnance.
 
Maybe he tags along for the ride, to lead the "Free British" government... :D

I'm not sure what the plans were for the actual government-in-exile, but the King would probably have been sent to Bermuda as opposed to Canada - it was feared that installing a monarch on the North American continent may not go down too well with the Yanks.
 
Jukra:
In the unlikely event of a successful S******, one thing the Germans wouldn't be able to do is use British trucks, or for that matter much other military equipment.
Why? Simple - the incompatability of British imperial measurements and German metric ones.
Yes, the can use imperial equipment for a short time, before it breaks down (as happened in North Africa), but how do they repair it. Whilst with a French truck, it may not be easy, but surely a German nut, is going to fit a French bolt!

As for using British industry - German plans were to loot the country, with any plant required being dismantled and sent to Germany.
The only thing Britain would have exported to Germany, would have been slave labour!
 
I'm not sure what the plans were for the actual government-in-exile, but the King would probably have been sent to Bermuda as opposed to Canada - it was feared that installing a monarch on the North American continent may not go down too well with the Yanks.

IIRC Most of the British holdings in the Americas were anticipated to fall into a US protectorate: Bermuda, the Caribbean islands, and Newfoundland and Labrador (at the time not part of Canada).
 
I find it hard to believe a British insurgency would be that hard to quell. Despite rhetorics I find it hard to believe that British political leadership or the public would have the will to turn the island into a graveyard. Britain is no Yugoslavia with deep mountain ranges and independent farmers. It was, if not the most then at least one of the most, industrialized societies on Earth, much more developed in many respects than Germany.

Scotland OTOH is pretty close to what you want. And if the Home Army decides to retreat into the Scottish highlands the Germans will have no end of trouble digging them out. They become the land equivalent of a fleet in being, tying up German forces best utilized elsewhere even if they aren't effective in a straight-on fight.

There's also the Irish question. A German occupation might be the only thing that could unite the IRA and the loyalists in Northern Ireland.
 
Why? Simple - the incompatability of British imperial measurements and German metric ones.
Yes, the can use imperial equipment for a short time, before it breaks down (as happened in North Africa), but how do they repair it. Whilst with a French truck, it may not be easy, but surely a German nut, is going to fit a French bolt!

Now, if Germans were unable to convert Schraubewerke No. 12345 to produce necessary bolts and nuts they probably would lose the war by October 1939 at latest... :D I think there's a large difference between acquiring a few captured vehicles and using them as long as possible and acquiring captured equipment in very large scale.

As for using British industry - German plans were to loot the country, with any plant required being dismantled and sent to Germany. The only thing Britain would have exported to Germany, would have been slave labour!

Maybe, and various consumer items as well.

Scotland OTOH is pretty close to what you want. And if the Home Army decides to retreat into the Scottish highlands the Germans will have no end of trouble digging them out. They become the land equivalent of a fleet in being, tying up German forces best utilized elsewhere even if they aren't effective in a straight-on fight.

Hadrianus wall-like solution? Scotland might be troublesome, but (having admittedly not ever visited Scotland) one cannot supply a large scale military force off the land there. Besides, what's there of military interest?

Personally I would guess Wales would be troublesome, because there's a large amount of mines producing first grade coal which would need to stay operational, and not at least because the local cryptographic security would be excellent... :D
 

burmafrd

Banned
By the summer of 1941 England had fortified most of her beaches and built strong points and pill boxes -while not to the scale of the German defenses- would have still been pretty tough to beat. Add to that an Army that has had a full YEAR to recover and learn its lessons.
A fully equiped army by that time.

A RAF that was in better shape in both planes and pilots; and had a better support system then during the BOB.

The RN by then also had a lot of small craft; gun boats and PT type boats. They would have been a lot of trouble as well.

Germany would have HAD to have built landing craft. BARGES would never work.

There is no way the Brits would not miss all these preparations for invasion.

You would have to butterfly Enigma away as well.

All in all a total wank.
 
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