Operation Sea Lion 1974 Sandhurst Wargame

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Not James Stockdale, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. Errolwi Well-Known Member

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    Um, it was the NZers that were bus-mobile (as I mentioned earlier). The timing for this reference is mid-July. Not sure if equivalent lift was provided to the other divisions of 7 Corps.
    http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Gree-c2.html#n35
    There was still an acute shortage of arms, vehicles and equipment. Fifth Field Regiment had only one battery: a collection of 18-pounder guns and 4.5-inch howitzers. The anti-tank companies had been given the Bedford 30-cwt trucks, sheeted with ⅝ inch steel plate and equipped with Bren guns and anti-tank rifles. C Squadron Divisional Cavalry had six light tanks and six Bren carriers. The Army Service Corps details, men from the Petrol and Ammunition Companies, had motor lorries, but for the transportation of troops 8 and 9 Motor Coach Companies had been attached from the RoyalArmy Service Corps. With their enormous camouflaged buses they could lift the whole force in one move.
    Some interesting descriptions of decisions around sending forces overseas from the UK in the following few pages.
     
  2. Cymraeg Ebil bocagist CONSPIRATOR!

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    Given the fact that the German paras were dropped with their weapons in separate canisters, I wonder how many would have to swim ashore and then attack with whatever else they had on them. Penknives perhaps?

    I would also like to say that having been to the IoW and seen the a) woods/copses scattered all over the place, b) the sheer cliffs on the Southern side and c) hills that are all over the damn place, making glider landings damn difficult, I can only roll my eyes at the idea of it being seized by a coup de main and then held.
    Wait, didn't we have this conversation before in that other thread?
     
  3. eltf177 Well-Known Member

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    This exactly, there wasn't much chance of this working - especially given the weather.

    The 1965 movie BATTLE OF THE BULGE has Skorzney's group parachuting in, getting these two separate groups mixed together...
     
  4. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

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    They dropped armed with a P38 pistol with 2 spare 8 round magazines and 2 Stick bombs

    IIRC the Garrison of the IoW was 2 Infantry Brigades plus what ever Home guard formations (probably armed with German weapons that suddenly descended from the sky)
     
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  5. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    Heres a bit of perspective on the ability of RAF & Lw bombers to locate ships in the Channel. First image shows the location of a hypothetical bomber.

    Channel View Position.jpg

    Next is the view to the North, between Brighton & Eastbourne. From a altitude of only 1000 feet.

    Aircraft view north.jpg

    ...aaannd the view to the south by our bomber pilot Captain Hypothetical. Generally to Frecamp or Le Harve Clearly there is no place to hide once daylight comes. Overcast is helpful only if it drops below 1000 feet & turns to haze. At night its not going to take many parachute flares to locate 500 or 200, or even 50 German transports clustered together. Warships are a bit more problematic, operating in small groups as it were. While this voyage is going to take all night & then some for the invasion transports, its going to take a quarter hour of search for bombers to spot and set up for attack on transports in daylight. How long it takes at night depends on how well organized the reconnaissance group is and how efficient their flare patterns are.

    Aircraft vVew South.jpg
     
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  6. DaveBC Well-Known Member

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    These are all valid points but when it comes to the Isle of Wight I just have a gut feeling. The last time someone challenged the British in the Solent, the British lost their best ship, the Mary Rose. It's unlucky waters for them - that's another bonus point in favour of the Isle of Wight.

    If you could get them ashore at Ventnor, you could haul all the 88 guns up to the north shore of the island and based on that map there that would mean you could take pot shots at any Royal Navy ship suicidal enough to try to run the gauntlet out of Portsmouth.
     
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  7. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    How long would the 88s hold up against 60lbrs emplaced to the flanks of Portsmouth?
     
  8. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    It was. But the British *system* was a lot better.
     
  9. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    A failed IoW operation - and it will fail - will burn far more of the Heer's willingness to try a second Sealion than it will damage either the RAF or the RN (cough Revenge is in range cough).
     
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  10. Astrodragon Coffee-seeking Dragon Kicked

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    Of course, how could I be so foolish as to think a gun that can't penetrate the armour of anything heavier than a destroyer (and even a destroyer isn't that easy) won't actually STOP the Royal Navy... mea culpa.
     
  11. DaveBC Well-Known Member

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    They'll hold up against that better than against Revenge's port-to-shore bombardment I should think.

    That said, somewhere I have a picture of a German tank ostensibly hit by a round from a battleship, and it's difficult to tell where or even if the armour was penetrated. So much for armour-piercing.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  12. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

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    Thats due to the good honest German Sweat that was part of the armour making process on German Tanks
     
  13. Stenz Don't judge the past by the standards of today... Monthly Donor

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    [​IMG]

    This the one? It is (was?) a Panzer IV before experiencing 16” of WAllied greetings.
     
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  14. Alanith Well-Known Member

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    Ah but you see, Revenge only has 15 inch guns! Flawless victory for the mighty German Panzers! Now if Nelson or Rodney come into range they might have some problems...
     
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  15. Stenz Don't judge the past by the standards of today... Monthly Donor

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    Ah, dammit, you’re right. I’ve just looked up “Panzer IV at four miles” on my copy of Okun’s penetration data tables and the minimum required for penetration is 15.99” - so Revenge would be useless in this scenario...
     
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  16. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    If we weren't here Glenn your 12-year-old nephew would have to bear the brunt of your obsession.
     
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  17. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    See, now this is a constructive contribution to the discussion.
     
  18. DaveBC Well-Known Member

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    Okay. On the surface, this sounds like an appallingly inappropriate thing to say, so before our local moderator feels put in an awkward position over this, perhaps someone should point out that this is going back to Glenn's earlier point that when he is not talking about Sea Lion on the forum here he is explaining it to said relative.
     
  19. DaveBC Well-Known Member

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    Difficult to be certain because of the quality of the photograph but I don't see any visible holes where the shell actually punched through the armour.

    At least it must have been quick.
     
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  20. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    Ah, yeah, thank you. I certainly didn't mean it an appalling inappropriate manner. I was very much harking back, tongue in cheek, to that comment Glenn made himself about how he was explaining to his young nephew some point or other about Sea Lion and how he got it but apparently none of us had. That comment has remained in my mind.