Operation Roundup feasability?

working on a possible invasion of France in 1943 timetime.


The thought going in is a slightly different lession from Dieppe:

Don't land where the Germans are.

The Atlantic coast of France is very, very lightly defended, especially in 1943. There were only about 10-15 divisions in all of France in summer 1943, compared to about 50 in 1944.

The thought is: Hit the Atlantic Coast where the defenses are weakest (the germans ONLY defended ports in 1943, stretches of beach were undefended!), and sieze La Rochelle and Bordeaux, and race to Paris before too many units can be pulled from the eastern front.

Its a bit out of range of land based air, but a pretty strong carrier-based strike force (say Essex, Wasp, Independance, Belleau Wood, along with UK's Ark Royal, Illustrious, and Indefatigable) could provide cover for a Bay of Biscay landing.


plausible?
 
There was a thread about this some time ago (and possibliy even more than one). I expressed my opinion back then and I stick to it: an invasion in 1943 would be more difficult for the allies then in 1944.
In 1944 the great challenge was landing in France. After that it was game over: the Germans simply did not have any forces left that could have stopped the Allies once they broke through the coastal defenses.
In 1943, landing will be the easy part, advancing inland will be difficult.
The German Army in 1943 was overall larger and much more powerfull then it would be in 1944. Most of it's strength would be on the eastern front, but the amount of troops available for redeployment west would obviously be larger.
Conversely, the allied armies would be smaller, due to one year less of buildup, and have less combat experience.
Depending on the exact background and circumstances of the landing, the Germans could delay, stop or even decisively defeat the allied invasion.
 
Also, what about shipping? A landing in 1943 in France would pretty much preclude any Allied landings in Sicily or Italy. Without those landings, Italy stays in the war, and the Germans don't deploy nearly as many formations to Italy and the Balkans.

Of course, this leaves more Allied forces available for France (US 5th and British 8th Armies), and there is the point that once Allied forces were ashore, massive NGFS would ensure the Germans couldn't push them into the sea.

But if the Allies push too far too fast (to Paris, let's say) then sure, maybe they get there. But with German forces rushing West, the Allies will soon be fighting major German ground forces with much less combat experience than they had in 1944, a lower degree of air superiority, and, of course, all the BBs in the world can't do much to support fighting around Paris.

I can see a 1943 landing in France being an initial victory, but turn into a costly fiasco.
 
When did the germans start preparing ports for demolition?

In 44, the allies NEEDED those mulberries, because getting the ports in usable shape took months. In 43 they dont have mulberries or pluto for supplies, which makes supplying their forces really tough.
 
When did the germans start preparing ports for demolition?

In 44, the allies NEEDED those mulberries, because getting the ports in usable shape took months.
Actually, more of the stores needed in '44 ended up being brought ashore directly over the beaches, in LSTs or DUKWs or whatever, rather than through the Mulberries... but of course a 1943 invasion would presumably have fewer of those vehicles available to it, too...
 

CalBear

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Round-up (the plan, not the herbicide, which is actually really good) was a desperation plan. It would have failed, probably so spectacularly that the U.S. would have never tried again. You need air supremacy to mount an invasion of the scale of Round-up (which was big enough to REALLY hurt when it failed, but nowhere large enough to have a prayer).

Playing a half dozen air wings against the combined forces of the Luftwaffe, especially before the Hellcat has become the fighter de jure, as was the case in early summer of 1943, would be utter madness. Hell of a good way to lose a passel of ships.
 
Not landing it Italy and using those forces elsewhere is probably a good thing. Compared to advances in France and Eastern Europe, the 1943-45 battle for Italy could be considered a German victory, mostly due to the narrow, defensively favorable campaign. Given the new Allied Strategy of 'no frontal assaults', and invasion of italy is unlikely anyway.

ok. here's somewhat of the plan:

July, 1943. As Kursk is kicking off, landing near La Rochelle on an undefended section of beach, with 1 Canadian, 2 British, and 4 US divisions including the 1st & 2nd US Marine Divisions, these forces are all pulled from US/UK bases, leaving the 5th US & 8th UK Armies in north africa. This new group: the United States XXX Corps and UK XVII Corps are detailed as the First United Nations Army, 2 Free French Divisions (equipped with US material), and a Polish division (equipped with British equipment) are added in the first few days. As more forces arrive, it is split into the US 2nd army (under Eisenhower) and British 2nd Army (Under Kenneth Anderson), under the SHAEF (under Marshal)

On D+1, the british and canadians attack the single infantry division in La Rochelle, taking its port more-or-less intact after 3 days. Newly arrived forces plus the US forces rush eastward.

Forces OTL pulled off the Eastern front that went to Italy are instead rushed to France. Not much more can be spared given that Kursk is going on Hammer and Tongs! Also of benefit to the Allies is that the Sherman is still superior to the few PZ III and not-upgraded Pz IV tanks in the west, 90% of the brand new Tigers and Panthers are at Kursk.

By the end of the first week, advancing under very light to no opposition, the US forces reach as far south as the Pyrenees and Toulouse, Capturing Bordeaux, and as far east as the Loire river, where Kesselring is making his stand. The British 2nd Army has advanced as far as St. Nazaire, and Le Mans, and just outside of Orleans

Kursk has ground to a halt far sooner than OTL as forces were redeployed, Soviet troops went on a counter offensive against troops not quite as beat up as OTL, but due to forces being moved west, make similar gains in August as OTL.

A counter attack in late July on the American southern front shows the Americans have learned from the disaster at Kasserine, as thinly held lines withdraw in good order before the blitz. The Americans allow the german Panzer corps to push 100 miles towards Bordeaux before a counter stroke cuts off their supply lines, coupled with another weakly-opposed landing outside Marseilles by the Us 5th army in August that drives up the Rhone valley, linking up with the 2nd Army's counter strike around Lyons and capturing the German 15th Army in a gigantic pocket.

At the end of August, the 8th Air Force sends a 1000 plane B-17 strike to flatten the defenses around Orleans, as massive 'carpet bombing' along a 5 mile section of front. American, British, and Free French forces blast through this gap, taking Paris only 2 days after the breakthrough, and the 'Race to the Rhine' is on.

In September, the 8th Army finally lands in Sicily, far less defended than OTL, capturing the island in a 3-week long campaign. It is followed in October by landings in Southern Italy, that ends Italian involvement in the War. Because of the fighting in France, not as many troops are able to be dispatched to occupy Italy as in OTL

On the Eastern Front, Russian attacks push the Germans back much as OTL, with slightly better gains than OTL due to more forces being withdrawn to defend France. By the middle of October, when the mud forces a halt to offensive operations, most of their line is similar to OTL. However, they have recaptured Kiev, the Crimea, and the Dneiper is the primary defensive line in the south, 100-200 miles farther west than in OTL, in the north, the lines are farther south from Leningrad than OTL by about 60 miles.

By the end of October, allied armies are holding a line from the Swiss alps to Belgium, just bushing into the Italian Alps, strongly held by German forces. Mongomery's 8th army is pushing against a defensive line just south of Rome, which has ground to a stalemate.
 
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