Operation Compass succeeds
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Hyperion
Banned
As a junior partner, no, most certainly not. But you forget historical context. A good percentage of the French forces that fought for the allies in the main line army level later in WW2 where originally Vichy troops that switched sides when the Americans and British beat the Germans and Italians off the continent of Africa.
Taken in the context of this timeline laid out before us, what do the Vichy in North Africa see. At the end of 1940, early into 1941 most would have thought that the British would have been defeated, or at least been put on the defensive. Now here we have a scenario where, except for the Vichy and perhaps some token German and Italian diplomatic and avisory personnel, the Vichy French forces are the only real forces left the the British would have to worry about in Africa.
The British/Commonwealth forces can now rightfully say that they do have what it takes to beat the Germans. They have destroyed the entire Italian army in Africa, the small German army sent to reinforce the Italians, and the German airborne army thrown against Crete. Not war winning accomplishments, but the British have definitely drawn a line in the sand.
While the Vichy French may harbor some grudges against the British for some of the things the British have done towards them, would they realistically want to risk their lives for their wounded pride?
Taken in the context of this timeline laid out before us, what do the Vichy in North Africa see. At the end of 1940, early into 1941 most would have thought that the British would have been defeated, or at least been put on the defensive. Now here we have a scenario where, except for the Vichy and perhaps some token German and Italian diplomatic and avisory personnel, the Vichy French forces are the only real forces left the the British would have to worry about in Africa.
The British/Commonwealth forces can now rightfully say that they do have what it takes to beat the Germans. They have destroyed the entire Italian army in Africa, the small German army sent to reinforce the Italians, and the German airborne army thrown against Crete. Not war winning accomplishments, but the British have definitely drawn a line in the sand.
While the Vichy French may harbor some grudges against the British for some of the things the British have done towards them, would they realistically want to risk their lives for their wounded pride?
There will be fighting in Tunisia and Algiers, as the British XIII and XI Corps are not realistically going be welcomed with open arms. The matter will be settled however, by Alphonse Pierre Juin and the decisions he makes throughout June.
The seizure of French North Africa at this early date is doubtful. Note that in November 1942 against the US and UK the French did fight, although they couldn't be bothered to lift a finger against the Germans in Tunisia.
Firstly thank you
Secondly I'd like people to point out the flaws in this TL. Like I said earlier, if someone points out I've made a mistake and I know it needs fixing, I can alter it before I do the final version.
I thought the 132nd and the Ariete Division were the same division
Italian 132nd Armored Division
Having a 132nd Regiment in the 132nd Division is of course quite confusing.
Indeed, I accept that as a tank it might be a piece of unwiedly junk. Its just that it will still prove to be better than its Italian counterparts.
The 1st South African Division was in North Africa during May and they took part in Operation Crusader IIRC. The volunteer part might be a problem, but if it is then the 1st South African Division will have to join O'Connor and the ANZACs will have to have the pleasure of defending Crete.
This is why General O'Connor lost the opportunity to annihilate the Italian presence in Libya completely, and had to hold off his offensive for months to allow supplies to reach his front line.
Montgomery pulled off a dash from El Alemein to Tripoli in three months by stockpiling his supplies, and until he captured Tripoli he didn't have the benefits of nearby ports with large tonnage capacities. It is doable if the commander makes sufficent effort to gather enough fuel and ammunition, which O'Connor has done.
Hyperion
Banned
Don't you remember your history? The Germans never invaded Tunisia by way of a landing from the Med. Rommel simply fell back out of Libya, into Tunisia with the forces he already had in country.
Launching a major invasion against a target when you have no friendly forces already there is one thing. Simply sending reinforcements to link up with troops already in country is a whole different ball game.
The problem here is that we are reaching the launch of Operation Barbarossa, and this will be the immediate concern for Hitler. Another delay might mean the invasion can't be launched this year and thats more time for the soviets to build up their forces and slow down the Heers progress.
Another point is that if Tunisia falls then the Axis are going to find it difficult to get any further Divisions to North Africa. If their merchantmen and transport vessels can't land at Bizerte or Tunis, then they are not only delayed by having to land at the port of Algiers but are coming too close to comfort towards the British line of supplies and their heavy escorts.
If that happens, then Admiral Dudley pound is not going to be short of constructive tasks for the British Mediterranean Fleet to undertake.
Hyperion, wrong. German/Italian forces were deployed directly to Tunisia from Europe, mostly via Sicily. Rommel's forces were hundreds of miles to the SE trying to break Montgomery's grip on them.
Hyperion
Banned
But you apparently lack the knowledge of where they where trying to break Montgomery's grip. The answer is, of course, in Tunisia.
?Do whe need for Britain to attack France?
Except for bombing the fleet at Onan, I don't think there has been any British-French fighting.
In May Iraq will abrogate it's treaty with Britain and seek Italian/German Aid.
Italy and Germany will stage thru Syria, leading to GB & the Free french attacking Syria in June
But ATL with the British victories, Iraq will stay quiet. so no need to attack in Syria.
If the British fortify the Tunisia border, they can send troops to help the Greek holdouts, and retake Greece.
And with no Attacks on the Vichy French, it will be easier to apply political pressure for the Vichy to join the Allies.
Except for bombing the fleet at Onan, I don't think there has been any British-French fighting.
In May Iraq will abrogate it's treaty with Britain and seek Italian/German Aid.
Italy and Germany will stage thru Syria, leading to GB & the Free french attacking Syria in June
But ATL with the British victories, Iraq will stay quiet. so no need to attack in Syria.
If the British fortify the Tunisia border, they can send troops to help the Greek holdouts, and retake Greece.
And with no Attacks on the Vichy French, it will be easier to apply political pressure for the Vichy to join the Allies.
2 points to be made here:
1. I do not see why the Italians perform better against the Greeks in this ATL. They have a disaster developing in North Africa, so they don't necessarily have the ability to send more troops to Greece. The Regia Aeronautica is getting pounded in North Africa, so less planes are available for Greece as well. The flow of supplies to North Africa has to be kept up, since the fighting is far more intense that in OTL, so less supplies get to Albania probably.
The British didn't really aid the Greeks in beating off the Italians in OTL with land forces. They merely tried to stop or slow down the Germans when they attacked. What the British did was to secure Crete and allow the Greeks to redeploy the division stationed there to Albania. That probably does not happen that soon in ATL, so indeed the Greeks may be lacking one division here.
However because of the reasons mentioned above, I do not see them gaining groung against the Greeks.
In the end Germany steps in and Greece falls probably a couple of weeks sooner than in OTL.
2. With no Commonwealth troops to evacuate from Peloponese, one could expect that more Greek forces routed by the Germans may make it to Crete. The British may even try to extract Greek troops from Western greek ports, although such operations would sustain attacks by the Italians. These forces may however be used to defend Crete as well, thus making the German landing effort even more difficult.
I already got called to account on the first point, you know
In answer to the second point, yes there will be a Free Greek force in this TL that will initially be based on Crete. In OTL I think over 50'000 allied troops got evacuated from the mainland, but the Royal Navy is somewhat occupied in this TL with escorting those vital convoys needed by O'Connor and his Corps as well as supporting the ground advance with coastal bombardments.
In short I'm not sure yet how many Greek soldiers could realistically be evacuated to Crete by the uncommitted elements of the RN and the Hellenic Navy. With a good deal of luck and the bulk of the Regio Marina kept at arms length, it might be possible to salvage enough men to form a Corps strength formation of between two or three divisions. This might be stretching plausability though, so anyone have some comments to add regarding this?
Rearmed with British made weapons (which they can actually be given sufficent ammunition for, and even re-supplied occassionally) and we've got a solid addition to the allied forces in the Mediterranean.
Yep, but the British will worry about having an exposed flank in North Africa whilst the are campaigning in the Eastern Mediterranean.
The Imperial General Staff (who have more descretion to prosecute the war their way in this TL) will be quite aware of the mayhem that the Italians and Germans could case if they were able to get another army ashore in Tunisia.
Tunisia is also the key to getting further Axis forces across the Mediterranean, because as I've already stated landing forces in Algiers is taking the Italian shipping lanes to close to the vital British convoy routes and the warships guarding them. This will provoke a response that the Regio Marina would find extremely unpleasant
In short: If Tunisia is in British hands then the probability of another Axis army landing in North Africa is vastly reduced. This is vital to securing their flanks, which the IGS will want to do before they begin any campaigns against the Dodecanese and Cyclades Islands.
Are you having the Greeks deploying as OTL, or will the absence of British troops on the ground make them deploy more sanely? 57,000 troops were evacuated in OTL, and there were 9000 Greek soldiers already on Crete.
The evacuation probably wouldn't be performed by warships, they would only be needed to escort civilian shipping if the Regio Marina attempts to interdict them.
As I say above, going by OTL you'd have about 66,000 Greek troops evacuated. You could also recruit from among the Cretans, and possibly also from the Greek Cypriots - a population base of less than a million. You could probably get about a hundred thousand men under arms if you tried. If you planto replace the South Africans in the write up on Crete, you could do so with these Greek troops.
Quite. As importantly, having Greece continue fighting on makes for good propaganda, in addition, when Lend-Lease starts the Greek government will be a recipient of it.
As a side note it wouldn't be the Free Greeks in the same way as the Free French, as the legitimate Greek government wouldn't have surrendered. It wouldn't even be the Greek-Government-in-Exile, as they aren't in exile
I wouldn't have though that the type of troops needed in the Eastern Med would be that helpful in the desert - taking islands is a job for the marines and the navy. On that matter, did the were the Italian forces in the Dodecanese committed to the attack on Crete? If so then an immediate attack to capitalise on this weakness could be optimal.
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I don't think they'll have the manpower on their own to pull off anything like they did with British support in OTL, so the Greeks will most likely go on the defensive along the Pindus Mountains and the River Aoos in the West and keep the bulk of their forces ready to meet the Germans.
When it becomes clear that they aren't going to win, the Greeks will stage a fighting withdrawal south to the Athens and the Peloponnese, from where they can evacuate.
Thats what I'm thinking of so far
Very true, and in retrospect I should really have thought of that. I guess it comes from watching the Guns of Navarone too many times as a nipper.
Three divisions will be fine to start with
It will also ease much of the tension between the British and Greeks over the loss of the mainland issue, which can only be a good thing. It also might mean a lot more public sympathy in the US towards the allies before they find themselves dragged into the war.
1st, 2nd and 3rd Greek Infantry Divisions it shall be then
Sounds sensible. This will probably delay the surrender of Greece by quite a bit. This extra time means that much more can be evacuated, and in better order. I'd imagine that the entire government and treasury would be taken, and many more people. Quite what the British would do with all the refugees is an active question. If the Bridges over the Corinth Canal are destroyed, then taking the Peloponnese would be delayed. This would also be much more costly for the Germans in terms of men and materials.
I know it's a nit pick, but they'd probably evacuate and then rebuild existing units of the Hellenic Army.
On the Vichy French, they are probably under immense pressure to allow Axis troops to deploy to French North Africa. If the Germans press too hard, and the Vichy regime refuses, we could well see the Germans dissolve it, and put all of France under direct military rule, sending the French colonies into the Allies.
Thanks for the feedback on this, and this just sounds like its the right way to go.
Very well... The I, II and III Divisions
Pretty similar to what I had in mind, though I also factored in his growing contempt for Admiral Darlan and the Vichy Regime as well as opportunist British agents opening negotiations with General Juin slightly earlier.
And with Tunisia in Free French hands...the Axis are not getting back onto North Africa again in sufficent numbers to threaten the British holdings in Libya and Egypt.