operation Bolo : alternate outcome

Khanzeer

Banned
WI the vietnamese had advance warning of Robin Olds plan, how would the battle go any differently?

there were 50+ usaf F-4 involved apparently and 9 Mig-21 were engaged [ unreliable source] and 5 or 7 were shot down.A terrible day for NVAF

What tactics can viet fishbeds employ to defeat USAF F-4s on an aggressive CAP mission like operation bolo?

WI Soviets supplied 100 + more fishbeds in that period flown by Cubans, soviets etc and in NVAF markings?
Will a huge influx of fishbeds like this have a significant affect on the airwar ? As in OTL NVAF had only 20 or fishbeds at that time
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
And one last thing , is it possible NVAF could have opted for something like mig21FL which has a gun pack? It probably would have been more useful
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Pretty much the only way they could get advanced warning would be if there was a spy in the USAF. But ignoring how they would get advanced warning, if they did have it they simply wouldn't take the bait. No MiG-21s would be sortied, and instead they would try to use SAMs to take out the Phantoms.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Pretty much the only way they could get advanced warning would be if there was a spy in the USAF. But ignoring how they would get advanced warning, if they did have it they simply wouldn't take the bait. No MiG-21s would be sortied, and instead they would try to use SAMs to take out the Phantoms.
But their jamming pods made them invulnerable to SAMs?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Yeah, so they would probably fail. Electronic warfare presented a serious challenge to Soviet equipment. Better to let the F-4s escape then to risk your own planes though.
What about just increasing the number of mig21 available?
Surely quadrupling the number of fighters would likely be of some benefit.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
What about just increasing the number of mig21 available?
Surely quadrupling the number of fighters would likely be of some benefit.
They could, but do they have enough experienced pilots? Sending inexperienced pilots would result in a slaughter. If they really want to beat the USAF the Soviets might need to pull the same trick they did in Korea and send in Soviet pilots in Vietnamese-marked planes.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
They could, but do they have enough experienced pilots? Sending inexperienced pilots would result in a slaughter. If they really want to beat the USAF the Soviets might need to pull the same trick they did in Korea and send in Soviet pilots in Vietnamese-marked planes.
They can deploy WP pilots but their training and tactics would limit them to hit and run attacks even on F4s
 
The F4C is simply a better fighter than the MiG21, and when they meet on equal terms with skilled pilots its going to be difficult for the MiG21 to win.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
The F4C is simply a better fighter than the MiG21, and when they meet on equal terms with skilled pilots its going to be difficult for the MiG21 to win.
True but will numerical superiority of 3 to 1 be able to tip the balance somewhat?
 
If the North Vietnamese Air Force is suddenly reinforced with a hundred MIGs the US will quickly figure out that all those pilots are coming from other communist countries. The only way the Communist bloc could reinforce North Vietnam’s Air Fiorce to a level that tries to outnumber the Us would be to intervene in the war like in Korea.
The USAF and USN/USMC response will be to up the ante and reinforce it’s fighter groups in Southeast Asia. North Vietnam will have it’s own MIG Alley. The big difference will be that the Americans are already using a fighter ( F-4 Phantom) that can dominate the MIGs rather than waiting for a F-86 to arrive in greater numbers. The F-8 Crusader was no slouch either.
 
The F4C is simply a better fighter than the MiG21, and when they meet on equal terms with skilled pilots its going to be difficult for the MiG21 to win.

That's a bold statement. Perhaps your getting it confused with the MiG-17, but the MiG-21 repeatedly proved itself the equal, and on several occasions the better, of the F-4 in a variety of conflicts where it engaged the other on equal terms with equally skilled pilots. VPAF's veteran pilots noted in interviews that in general combat conditions, they were always confident of a kill over an F-4 when flying a MiG-21. The whole reason the US set-up Operation Bolo to be as one-sided a fight as possible was to negate the advantages the MiG-21 had over the F-4 while maximizing the F-4s advantages over the MiG-21.
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
If the North Vietnamese Air Force is suddenly reinforced with a hundred MIGs the US will quickly figure out that all those pilots are coming from other communist countries. The only way the Communist bloc could reinforce North Vietnam’s Air Fiorce to a level that tries to outnumber the Us would be to intervene in the war like in Korea.
The USAF and USN/USMC response will be to up the ante and reinforce it’s fighter groups in Southeast Asia. North Vietnam will have it’s own MIG Alley. The big difference will be that the Americans are already using a fighter ( F-4 Phantom) that can dominate the MIGs rather than waiting for a F-86 to arrive in greater numbers. The F-8 Crusader was no slouch either.
But that will all happen after the initial battle
My question is rather than 50 + f4 flying to meet 10 mig21 as happened in OTL, what if they met 100 + mig21s ? Would the battle still be so one sided ?
 
But that will all happen after the initial battle
My question is rather than 50 + f4 flying to meet 10 mig21 as happened in OTL, what if they met 100 + mig21s ? Would the battle still be so one sided ?
I think Operation Bolo wouldn’t happen. I can’t see the North Vietnamese being able to hide 100 fighters scrambling out of the Hanoi area. I don’t think the Russians and Chinese could slip 100 MIGs into North Vietnam without American intelligence knowing about it. LBJ might be convinced to allow a preemptive against the airfields. Anyway American Radar picks a mass of enemy fighters launching. Robin Old’s fighters will break contact rather than fly into a one sided fight.
 
That's a bold statement.

Thank You.

Perhaps your getting it confused with the MiG-17

Um, no. Mig21, you know, little piece of shit with less fuel per engine than the Lightning.

but the MiG-21 repeatedly proved itself the equal, and on several occasions the better, of the F-4 in a variety of conflicts where it engaged the other on equal terms with equally skilled pilots. VPAF's veteran pilots noted in interviews that in general combat conditions, they were always confident of a kill over an F-4 when flying a MiG-21. The whole reason the US set-up Operation Bolo to be as one-sided a fight as possible was to negate the advantages the MiG-21 had over the F-4 while maximizing the F-4s advantages over the MiG-21.

The matchup had more to do with the role of the F4 than its ability. In Bolo the USAF flew flight profiles and used callsigns of Thuds, and when the Mig21s came up they got drilled, indicating that escorting is not the ideal way to win air to air fights.

Interesting that you mention VPAF veteran pilots, i'm not surprised they are confident since aces get the majority of the kills. Robin Olds himself got 4 kills in Rolling Thunder, I bet he was confident with the F4.
 
I think Operation Bolo wouldn’t happen. I can’t see the North Vietnamese being able to hide 100 fighters scrambling out of the Hanoi area. I don’t think the Russians and Chinese could slip 100 MIGs into North Vietnam without American intelligence knowing about it. LBJ might be convinced to allow a preemptive against the airfields. Anyway American Radar picks a mass of enemy fighters launching. Robin Old’s fighters will break contact rather than fly into a one sided fight.

Likey the F4s could disengage and then reengage once the Mig21s are bingo on fuel. The mid 60s Mig21 had 2200 litres of fuel, the Mirage IIIE had 3000, the BAC Lightning F6 had 5700 (2850l per engine) and the F4C 7200 (3600l per engine), Mig 21 were the proverbial missile with a man in it with a firm 1 hour endurance.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Likey the F4s could disengage and then reengage once the Mig21s are bingo on fuel. The mid 60s Mig21 had 2200 litres of fuel, the Mirage IIIE had 3000, the BAC Lightning F6 had 5700 (2850l per engine) and the F4C 7200 (3600l per engine), Mig 21 were the proverbial missile with a man in it with a firm 1 hour endurance.
Is this internal fuel ?
Can PF carry any external tanks ?
 
Um, no. Mig21, you know, little piece of shit with less fuel per engine than the Lightning.

Which doesn't describe the MiG-21 at all, which has generally proven to be a cost-effective fighter even able to still compete with many 4/4.5 generation fighters with aggressive modernization... rather like the F-4. It's short endurance has never proven to be much of a hinderance when performing it's actual role as a short-range air superiority fighter/interceptor.

The matchup had more to do with the role of the F4 than its ability. In Bolo the USAF flew flight profiles and used callsigns of Thuds, and when the Mig21s came up they got drilled, indicating that escorting is not the ideal way to win air to air fights.

Because the US was able to lure the MiGs into a surprise ambush. They didn't know they weren't fighting Thuds until they were being shot at, at which point it was generally too late. That has very little to do with either the role or the ability of the F-4 and more to do with the good preparation on the USAFs part for this particular case. When it came to "purer" battles between the F-4 and MiG-21, the usual decider was pilot skill. That's generally how it goes between aircraft of comparable ability.

Interesting that you mention VPAF veteran pilots, i'm not surprised they are confident since aces get the majority of the kills.

The implication which you are missing is that they were not as confident when they were flying MiG-17s or 19s.

Robin Olds himself got 4 kills in Rolling Thunder, I bet he was confident with the F4.

Well, I don't recall him having much to say about the Phantom. He did have a lot to say about the missiles the Phantom carried at the time, very little of it pleasant.
 

GarethC

Donor
Bear in mind the reasons that the MiG-21 was successful against the US over North Vietnam - it was over North Vietnam. The US lacked the godlike view of the battlespace that modern AWACS like the E-3 and SIGINT from RC-135s provide. With radar pictures only available from relatively short-ranged EC-123 and the USN Red Crown AAW destroyer contingent, it was regularly possible for the VNAF to use terrain masking to launch interceptors and remain unseen by radar until they chose to engage afterburners and do one pass from astern (with stern-aspect IR AAMs) at the bomber formations, which have to stay at high altitude to conserve fuel and are easily visible by VNAF GCI stations.

It was not in the dogfight where the MiG-21 was successful, it was in the drive-by.
 
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