Operation Barbarossa War Plans - which one?

While there are 'ifs' and 'buts' over the OTL Hitler Plan, which of the others would have been more successful - IYO?

There's the Marcks Plan - https://www.bing.com/images/search?...dindex=8&qpvt=barbarossa+war+plans&ajaxhist=0

The Halder Plan - https://www.bing.com/images/search?...rbarossa+war+plans&ajaxhist=0&selectedindex=3

The Hitler Plan - https://www.bing.com/images/search?...rbarossa+war+plans&ajaxhist=0&selectedindex=2

The first is too concentrated north and south of the Pripet Marshes, making a logistical nightmare. With the flanks at the north vulnerable - may not secure the Baltic states let alone anything else, and in the south leaving Romania vulnerable!.

The Halderr Plan looks the best, apart from the widening gap between the centre and the south especially after Moscow is taken, perhaps the follow ons should be east & south east, rather than north and east.

While in the OTL plan or Hitler's interference with the Halder Plan his wish to weaken the Moscow thrust in favour of Leningrad after Smolensk is taken - in the event he had a 180 degree change of mind!

How different would your plan be?
 
It is certainly with hindsight, but a weakening of the center in favor of AGS and agn may still achieve the first encirclements of AGC without OTL counterattac losses, add encirclements for AGS and allow the rapid capture of Leningrad in the fall. Then maybe AGS and AGn Can go for Moscow and achieve the OTL encirclements before the winter.
 
Germany must take Moscow in 1941 or Germany loses. The Industry there, the rail connections, the political part, the armies raised in the July-September 41 time frame there, if Moscow is still Soviet in 1942. The Soviet Union always wins.

So either throw everything forward the Center, (OR Gudestein's method above is interesting means to the same end.)(OTL was pretty decent too, might have worked with more air power available, or more supply trucks, or better weather, taking Moscow before the Winter)

Geographic realities:
The Dnieper bridges are an ultimate supply choke point in the south. Hard to support big armies east of there until fixed.
The best roads and rails and the least big rivers means going straight to Moscow.
Lost of Marshes and lakes around Leningrad which funnels an advance at the end.
 
The Russians would not surrender just because Moscow is captured, it's smarter to hold onto the Ukraine farms and try to get to the Caucasus oil fields. It's still a long shot.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Russians would not surrender just because Moscow is captured, it's smarter to hold onto the Ukraine farms and try to get to the Caucasus oil fields. It's still a long shot.
No, but they'd be seriously harmed by the loss of the industry, population, coal deposits, electrical production, rail lines, and communications, not to mention the prestige hit the regime would take among the population by losing Moscow on top of the OTL (though not as bad if Moscow was prioritized) territorial losses. Perhaps the Donbas doesn't fall ITTL or Leningrad suffers from the blockade, but even both situations wouldn't be an offset against the loss of Moscow.
 
Germany must take Moscow in 1941 or Germany loses. The Industry there, the rail connections, the political part, the armies raised in the July-September 41 time frame there, if Moscow is still Soviet in 1942. The Soviet Union always wins.

So either throw everything forward the Center, (OR Gudestein's method above is interesting means to the same end.)(OTL was pretty decent too, might have worked with more air power available, or more supply trucks, or better weather, taking Moscow before the Winter)

Geographic realities:
The Dnieper bridges are an ultimate supply choke point in the south. Hard to support big armies east of there until fixed.
The best roads and rails and the least big rivers means going straight to Moscow.
Lost of Marshes and lakes around Leningrad which funnels an advance at the end.
I guess my point is: a little more against Leningrad IOTL and it would succeed. It came close OTL.
The something is achieved and forces freed up to go for Moscow.
Going South-east from Leningrad is a good Road, but bad terrain and may not be that simple once a defence is established. That defence cannot also defend Moscow from AGC.
Having more panzer in AGS enables encirclements that didn’t happen IOTL and which butterflies the need for Kiev encirclements. In fact, there may be one in reverse.
Less in AGC may still be enough in the beginning because of the surprise.
I dont Think they lose much in AGC and they gain more after the early battles (+ Leningrad with a lot of Industry and prestige is in the bag).
 
No, but they'd be seriously harmed by the loss of the industry, population, coal deposits, electrical production, rail lines, and communications, not to mention the prestige hit the regime would take among the population by losing Moscow on top of the OTL (though not as bad if Moscow was prioritized) territorial losses. Perhaps the Donbas doesn't fall ITTL or Leningrad suffers from the blockade, but even both situations wouldn't be an offset against the loss of Moscow.
And the loss of bureaucrats, remember the people who actually make things work.
 
The Marcks plan takes too long, Hitler's plan was too ambitious. Halder plan is the best option. They needed to go go go.

My plan with all my knowledge(*cough*) i'd divert Army group south to the North at Kharkov or before the Don, crush the Soviet buildup there(which was quite elaborate) and enclose Moscow better, ready to capture it. After that revert them back south again towards Stalingrad. Lenigrad will fall automatically if you push past Moscow along the Wolga.
 

Anchises

Banned
My 2 cents:

Strenghtening AGN would be a wise move. Capturing Leningrad and connecting to the Finns would enable the Wehrmacht to strenghten defenses in the Center. Sending some Divisions to Smolensk shouldn't be a problem once Leningrad is secured.

AGC should dig in after Smolensk. Moscow is a good goal for a 1942 offensivw, especially if one considers the fuel situation.

AGS gets an additional Panzergroup (+potentially other reinforcements) after Smolensk has been pocketed, their goal is to a) secure Rostov and b) Crimea. The best outcome here would be to reach the gains that the Wehrmacht had after the prepatory operations for Case Blue.

After that in 1942 its Moscow or Bust. I have serious doubts that the Russians could pull off their counteroffensives with Rostov, Leningrad and Moscow in German hands. Especially because the Germans are not nearly as overextended as IOTL.

Then the Allies still win in the West and the Ruhrgebiet is nuked...
 
It's interesting that they all have AGS heading for Kiev, with the Romanian attack doing the same, while in OTL the latter goes east taking Odessa. But lionhead's idea (if I'm correct) of having AGS's pincers going north & south of Kiev and meeting at Kharkov is interesting.

Baring in mind the big change to the May 1940 Campaign that he instigated, I wonder how different Manstien's Plan may have been?
Also, these plans are before 'Crete' so what use could/would the German para/glider troops be? Once air supremacy was achieved the Ju-52s would be relatively safe.

Germany must take Moscow in 1941 or Germany loses. The Industry there, the rail connections, the political part, the armies raised in the July-September 41 time frame there, if Moscow is still Soviet in 1942. The Soviet Union always wins.

I agree - if Moscow is taken, victory is still not certain, but it's more plausible. Russia will fight to prevent it happening - so easier to try in '41, than in '42, moreover the Germans have more chance of defeating the Russian Armies before Moscow in '41 - and to win the war in the East the Germans need to defeat the Russian armies in the field. While wqe know OTL what happened in Stalingrad - street to street fighting etc., it can't be assumed that it happen like that in Moscow in say August '41!

I would reinforce AGN with the German forces under General Von Falkenhorst (who OTL attacked out of Norway), in OTL they didn't achieve anything, whereas added to AGN they could, but - anyone but Leeb!!
 
Top