Operacja Wojskowakraina Snów

Originally posted by Rich Rostrom
How about getting as many bombers as possible for an all-out strike on Schleswig-Holstein? It's in harbor, not moving. Deck armor is weak (40mm). The 300 kg bombs of the PZL 37 should penetrate.

It's not going to change the campaign much, but it will provide great newsreel footage (shot from the Westerplatte fortress).

Polish bombers were unable to dive, so precision wasn't that good, even from low altitude. But with 60 or so bombers they might actually hit something. OTOH they might also hit Westerplatte or Danzig. And losses would be very big - Polish airbases in Toruń and Poznań (closest one to Danzig, IIRC) should be quickly evacuated which means Polish bombers would have to attack from Warsaw - a long way with German fighters controlling most of the sky over the Corridor.
And Westerplatte was surrounded and under fire, so 1 - I doubt anyone would have time to film the attack (even if they were warned and had time to prepare); 2 - it would be hard to get the tape out of Westerplatte.
 
Polish cavalry brigade was naturally more mobile than an infantry division, at least on tactical scale (wagon trains made Polish cavalry units slower); The first phase of the campaign in the Corridor, from Polish POV, is based on manouver - Polish units make token resistance and withdraw. That is the job for mobile units, i.e. cavalry. The second phase is hard defense of the main line, where mobility is much less important. That is the job for bigger, but less mobile infantry divisions. Using cavalry units in the Corridor you have at least a chance to withdraw them and then you have both infantry AND cavalry on the main line. Using infantry units in the Corridor means loosing them for what is supposed to be only a token resistance.

There is a reason if I suggest to use a reserve division or two there, and not the active infantry divisions.
As to the "token" resistance, yes, it has to be token, but not too token. The OP posits that the Poles know about the german plan, but they don't know what the French and British will do. If the resistance in the Corridor risks being downplayed as local disturbances of the knid that happened in the Sudeten where the Czechs, eventually, did not fight, that's a serious liability.

The other aspect is that, sure, the cavalry brigades would be the units that are able to wage a fighting withdrawal. But they also are the best suited units for those counterattacks in the German flanks. That's what I want them quickly coming back to the MLR.

But the air recon is still up there, although I admit it was far from perfect. Poles indeed tried counterattacks, but they were usually poorly coordinated. Also Poles need to find the corect place for a counterattack and then have enough forces to make such a counterattack - that requires good recon and communication, which was a problem in Polish Army. And I'd like to remind you that after initial success Poles did loose the battle of Bzura.

Sure, all true, and these counterattacks also will be eventually contained, the Germans are just too strong.
But if they are contained after they have forced the armored thrusts to either withdraw or at least stop, that's a success.

The overarching point is that I'm playing for time here.
The reasoning is the following:
1. if by September 15 the Germans at least seem to be mired in difficulties, then it is possible that the ever-cautious Stalin says, "oh well, let's wait another week", and
2. if Stalin says so, then the French have no excuse not to carry out a renewed, larger offensive around that time, and
3. even if the French are, as predictable, half-hearted and not very successful, that in turn will make Stalin even more cautious, the German generals even more worried, and it will also be a little morale boost for the Poles, and
4. without a Soviet intervention, and with the Germans having to reinforce the West, there is half a chance for the situation to congeal until mid October - when the weather turns bad, which favors the defenders. Around this time, the Germans will be running out of 37mm rounds for their tank and AT guns. The Romanians might be pressured to let supplies get through. A slightly bigger slice of the Saar will be in French hands. Guerrilla operations might be going on in German-occupied territory (as per OTL, save that in OTL they had virtually no external support and no hope). Stalin might start considering another turnover in the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs. And so on.

I don't know. Poles had in the region 7 infantry divisions and 4 cavalry brigades (assuming Wyszków Group is mobilized) + some ON and fortress units.
German 3rd Army had 7 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry brigade, 1 armoured division (Kempf) + fortress and Grenzschutz units. However Germans had also support from Luftwaffe and could count on Guderian's XIX Motorized Corps (from 4tgh Army) which would have come quicker with smaller Polish resistance in the Corridor + some divisions from Army Group North reserve (like 208th ID).

Indeed I don't expect the Poles to conquer East Prussia. I weant them to make a serious dent in Eastern East Prussia, so that, instead of fighting a defensive action on their own soil at the German terms, ceding them the initiative, they fight a diversionary action on German soil, having initiative. Sure the Germans can move reserves, and may troops from 4. Armee, to contain and eventually beat back the Polish operation - but that's the point. Plus some good propaganda for taking German territory and bringing the fight there.

Note that:
1. of the 7 IDs of 3. Armee, 21. and 228. attacked towards Torun. They will still need to go there, i.e. in the wrong direction. The troops we have to look at are those that attack South towards Mława, and those that hold their ground in Eastern East Prussia;
2. Kempf's unit had tanks - that's what we can say about its being an armored unit. But calling it a Panzerdivision is an exaggeration. It had one Panzerregiment, which included a dozen real tanks (Pz III and IVs), some 80 light tanks (Pz IIs) and some 60 tankettes). It's somewhere between a standard light division and a true Panzerdivision, with the additional drawback of having SS troops for its motorized infantry.
3. as to the quick arrival of 4. Armee, yes, we're talking about less resistance in the Corridor, but we also have that wonderful foresight. Demolish the bridges, crater the roads, etc.
4. if you throw in just two of those additional fully mobilized Polish infantry divisions, things might just work.

Another thing is that Germans had the initiative of attack, which meant they could have concentrated their forces,

Yes, that's the point, taking some of the initiative from them. And yes, they could have concentrated their forces, but they didn't - I'm assuming they attack as per OTL, while the Poles have foreknowledge.

and Poles had much smaller margine of error - should Germans broke their line on Narew, whole defensive plan would have gone down.
I'm not sure if Group Narew was strong and mobile enough to attack, do some significant damage or at least make some confusion in German ranks (allowing Army Modlin to withdraw in peace from Mława) and then withdraw themselves to their main position on the Narew River.

In OTL, the 3. Armee attacked South with five IDs, the cavalry brigade, and Kempf. I say delay and then stop them with Armia Modlin, with its historical strength (2 DP, 2 BK, 1 ON brigade) augmented by two of the fully mobilized DPs now moved up from the East or reserve. Meanwhile, Grupa Narew attacks to the East, with 2 BK and 2 DP, faced initially by Grenzschutz units and the 206. ID (a 3. Welle division, BTW), to which the Germans may add the 208. (ditto).
I say the German initial drive onto Mława cannot go better than in OTL, while their defense to the East of it can give them some headaches.

Well, Slovakians had their own air force, IIRC at least 60 B-534 fighters; I think it would have been enough to protect Bratislava.

Sure, after a first surprise attack that will in all likelihood get through unscathed or nearly so. I don't suggest a continuing campaign there.

The Germans might make some gesture sening 1 or 2 AA artillery units or even a squadron of fighters (doubtful), which wouldn't have changed that much in the Polish campaign. In German opinion Bratislava might burn, they truely do not give a damn.

Yes, and one of the points is showing the Slovakians, and any other German actual or potential ally, just that.

And I'm still not convinced about costs of such an action, both political as in equipment. I doubt it would have been worth it. If Poles were to bomb something, it should be something German.

The French will hate that, in fear that their cities will be bombed. But there's not much they can do about that; their attack will be half-hearted anyway, but if Stalin is sitting on the fence and Poland still stands by mid-September, they must do it, exactly because of the political cost of not doing it.
And it the Germans do something stupid, both in retaliation and because things are getting worse in the West, like bombing a logistical rail node behind the Saar offensive, so much the better. The French will clamor for air attacks on Germany. It's a gain, for the only country whose cities are being bombed ruthlessly at this time in OTL.
The cost in equipment - who cares? It's not as if those bombers did much of significant in OTL, and indeed not a small number simply interned into Romania at the end of the month. So expend them.
As to bombing the Germans - yes, I like the proposal by Rich, one can also send some of the older and shorter-ranged ones, the Karaś, to hit the Stukas' airfields after they have just landed. This doesn't necessarily exclude the propaganda raid on Bratislava.
 
...

4. without a Soviet intervention, and with the Germans having to reinforce the West, there is half a chance for the situation to congeal until mid October - when the weather turns bad, which favors the defenders. Around this time, the Germans will be running out of 37mm rounds for their tank and AT guns. The Romanians might be pressured to let supplies get through. A slightly bigger slice of the Saar will be in French hands. ....

October, the first week, is the likely time a larger French offensive would start. The mobilization of the Active and 'A' series divisions was complete, as well as the equivalents for the non divisional Corps and Army personel. Artillery would have time to mass on the front, so combined arms corps of infantry, artillery, and tanks could start a attack designed to break down the main defense zone of the Germans. What the French plans for this point were I cant say, but the mobilization schedule had the pieces in place for this by early October.

By late October the series B divisions were or nearly were all mobilized, so one would think there would be sufficient cannon fodder for continuing or renewing the attack into the Rhineland. The amount of heavy artillery the French could have massed along this narrow front is impressive.
 
Originaly posted by Michele
There is a reason if I suggest to use a reserve division or two there, and not the active infantry divisions.
As to the "token" resistance, yes, it has to be token, but not too token. The OP posits that the Poles know about the german plan, but they don't know what the French and British will do. If the resistance in the Corridor risks being downplayed as local disturbances of the knid that happened in the Sudeten where the Czechs, eventually, did not fight, that's a serious liability.

It doesn't mean that much since Poles know Germany launches a full scale invasion. There would be enough of bloody fighting soout. The resistance in the Corridor is more a propaganda action for the Poles themselves.
And even a reserve infantry division is too valuable to loose it just for propaganda. Cavalry can hit and run (or at least has better chances to do it).

Sure, all true, and these counterattacks also will be eventually contained, the Germans are just too strong.
But if they are contained after they have forced the armored thrusts to either withdraw or at least stop, that's a success.
The overarching point is that I'm playing for time here.

I understand your point. I'm not sure if Poles were able to do it on larger scale, but you may be right here. It would be worth trying, anyway.

Indeed I don't expect the Poles to conquer East Prussia. I weant them to make a serious dent in Eastern East Prussia, so that, instead of fighting a defensive action on their own soil at the German terms, ceding them the initiative, they fight a diversionary action on German soil, having initiative. Sure the Germans can move reserves, and may troops from 4. Armee, to contain and eventually beat back the Polish operation - but that's the point. Plus some good propaganda for taking German territory and bringing the fight there.

Well, OK, but I still think that keeping the Narew line is more important. OTOH I admit that aggressive action of Group Narew might allow Army Modlin to withdraw peacefully. And with Group Wyszków mobilized it might be worth trying too.

As far as Slovakia goes - I really would leave them alone and hit something German. I'm not sure if Schleswig-Holstein is a good idea, I would prefer something more helpful for strategic situation (let's face it: S-H was problem only for Westerplatte and Coast Defence, which were cut off from the rest of Poland and without any serious significance except propaganda - "Westerplatte is still fighting"). Perhaps a nice big air raid against German 3rd Army. Poles pretty much know where they are (especially if Germans just got their nose bloodied at Mława), and it is close to air bases near Warsaw which means you can launch more than 1 attack a day - perhaps even get some cover from the Pursuit Brigade. But I admit that sinking S-H would be a nice propaganda coup.
Attack of Karaś against German airfields is doubtful - you have to find them and calculate when the Stukas land. And even if the Stukas landed that doesn't mean German fighters did. One thing is to loose bombers after the mission, another - before the mission is completed.
 
Possible - it's about 300 km from Cracow to Bratislava; however bombing a civilian city wouldn't be good for propaganda in early stage of war; Germans did it, but they were the bad guys; besides attacking such an easy target would be also a symbol of powerlessnes - we can not hit the Germans so we hit some poor, defenceless Slovakians.
I don't think it would help them a lot. Bratislava was pretty good protected by AA batteries and also Slovak Air Force, even if much weaker as Polish one, could scramble fighters from Piestany Airport. Also, I do not think Poles could send enough fighters to protect the bombers. Anyway, I believe Germans were still holding some fighters, even if training i Wiena area so it would be pointless.

BTW OTL attack on Bratislava in 1944 by USAF did some damaged but town still manufactured. I am not sure, need to check, how big damage was done to oil refinery there.

Slovaks basically advanced only on territories gained by Poland after Munich (so Bratislava called that action liberation) and on territories populated mostly by Slovaks and ceded to Poland in 20-ties by Czechoslovak government in, basically as was believed in Slovakia at the time, trade for Czech Tesin.

So from military side concentrating some effort and resources on Slovakia was at the time pointless. Mostly mountains, which were pretty easy deffended by polish KOP units which fought mostly retreating fights as front lines changed somewhere else. Slovaks, on other side didn't push to much once they got what they wanted. Bigger threat were German mountain divisions concentrated in Eastern Slovakia I believe.
 
Anyway, pity POD is not early March 1939. ;)

Before occupation of Czech lands and creation of Slovak republic Czechoslovak intelligence had information that Germans were preparing such actions against Czechoslovakia. As after Munich there were not good defensive positions resistance seemed pointless to politicians but there were some talks about evacuating whole Air Force to Poland. Due to very bad weather (check pictures, snow, low clouds etc) and also possible German repressions, whole action was abandoned.

How would Poland fare against Germans if backed by almost whole Czechoslovak Air Force?
 
Originally posted by KACKO
How would Poland fare against Germans if backed by almost whole Czechoslovak Air Force?
SOmewhat better, but not that much. First Poles would have had to trust Czecvh pilots or make them train Polish pilots (or both); second, what about ground crews? Are they coming as well? If not, training Polish ground crew s might take some time; third, what about ammo and spare parts? fourth - how would Poles organize those new units?

But assuming that all those problems are solved German Luftwaffe will suffer much bigger losses, considering that Polish/Czechoslovakian pilots have planes fast enough to catch German bombers. With more limited air support Polish campaign will last a week or 2 longer, although I think the German victory would have been certain - just with bigger butcher's bill. And what about the Soviets?
 
It doesn't mean that much since Poles know Germany launches a full scale invasion. There would be enough of bloody fighting soout. The resistance in the Corridor is more a propaganda action for the Poles themselves. And even a reserve infantry division is too valuable to loose it just for propaganda.

The problem is in timing. Yes, later on the Poles expect to make a stand. But put yourself in the shoes of Daladier, not later on, but on September 1-2. He sees the Poles withdrawing everywhere, nearly without fighting. He might believe they are doing a Czech number.
Yes, sure, by September 5 he'll know they are actually resisting with all they have, only a bit farther back.
But suppose this turns out to mean that the French DoW is on September 5? Becuase until that time the French government has adopted the line "if they don't defend their land themselves, why should we?"
Considering that we're playing for time and we want a sizable french offensive by mid September, that's a disaster.
That's why I'm willing to sacrifice one or two reserve divisions, not just for propaganda.



Cavalry can hit and run (or at least has better chances to do it).

Well, no question there.

I understand your point. I'm not sure if Poles were able to do it on larger scale, but you may be right here. It would be worth trying, anyway.

Especially given that I really don't see any alternative. Do you?

Well, OK, but I still think that keeping the Narew line is more important. OTOH I admit that aggressive action of Group Narew might allow Army Modlin to withdraw peacefully. And with Group Wyszków mobilized it might be worth trying too.

Thanks.

As far as Slovakia goes - I really would leave them alone and hit something German. I'm not sure if Schleswig-Holstein is a good idea, I would prefer something more helpful for strategic situation (let's face it: S-H was problem only for Westerplatte and Coast Defence, which were cut off from the rest of Poland and without any serious significance except propaganda - "Westerplatte is still fighting"). Perhaps a nice big air raid against German 3rd Army. Poles pretty much know where they are (especially if Germans just got their nose bloodied at Mława), and it is close to air bases near Warsaw which means you can launch more than 1 attack a day - perhaps even get some cover from the Pursuit Brigade. But I admit that sinking S-H would be a nice propaganda coup.
Attack of Karaś against German airfields is doubtful - you have to find them and calculate when the Stukas land. And even if the Stukas landed that doesn't mean German fighters did. One thing is to loose bombers after the mission, another - before the mission is completed.

All reasonable points. Note I didn't suggest bombing the Schleswig-Holstein from the air. As to calculations concerning the Stukas, remember our marvelous foresight; we do know that at dawn they're striking Wieluń.
 
I don't think it would help them a lot. Bratislava was pretty good protected by AA batteries and also Slovak Air Force, even if much weaker as Polish one, could scramble fighters from Piestany Airport. Also, I do not think Poles could send enough fighters to protect the bombers. Anyway, I believe Germans were still holding some fighters, even if training i Wiena area so it would be pointless.

All of that would come in handy if what we were doing was a continued bombing campaign against Bratislava. We're doing one surprise attack. It will arrive unannounced and get through unhindered.

BTW OTL attack on Bratislava in 1944 by USAF did some damaged but town still manufactured. I am not sure, need to check, how big damage was done to oil refinery there.

But we don't give a damn about actually doing real damage. This also helps in getting most of the Karaś back; they can fly as high and as fast as they can, we need no accuracy. It's a propaganda mission.

So from military side concentrating some effort and resources on Slovakia was at the time pointless.

a. Indeed this does not vaunt military objectives at all and
b. Do you remember what the Karaś actually achieved in actual history?

The good thing, as I see it, about several of my proposals is that it's not as if there is something much better that can be done with the assets I proposed to use.
 
(let's face it: S-H was problem only for Westerplatte and Coast Defence, which were cut off from the rest of Poland and without any serious significance except propaganda - "Westerplatte is still fighting").

OK, no torpedoing it where it is at the time it opens fire.
But it left the place after a while.
Can we use a submarine to lay mines at the exit?
Did/would the Germans be careful enough to send a minesweeper ahead?
 
October, the first week, is the likely time a larger French offensive would start. The mobilization of the Active and 'A' series divisions was complete, as well as the equivalents for the non divisional Corps and Army personel. Artillery would have time to mass on the front, so combined arms corps of infantry, artillery, and tanks could start a attack designed to break down the main defense zone of the Germans. What the French plans for this point were I cant say, but the mobilization schedule had the pieces in place for this by early October.

By late October the series B divisions were or nearly were all mobilized, so one would think there would be sufficient cannon fodder for continuing or renewing the attack into the Rhineland. The amount of heavy artillery the French could have massed along this narrow front is impressive.

All true, but the French would have been ready to launch an intermediate operation (halfway between the actual demonstration attack and this larger offensive) by mid-September.
It's not as if they can achieve a lot, and certainly they can't achieve what a wholehearted offensive with all forces ready might achieve a further 2-3 weeks later. But anything is better than what happened in OTL, i.e. nothing else after the initial move.

The nice thing about this all is that it's difficult to do worse than in actual history.
 
While we're at it, since we have some knowledgeable posters here. I always wondered if the rumor about the Polish AT rifle were true. Namely, that they treated it as such a super-secret weapon that they did not supply it in time to the frontline units, and even those that received it, anyway had no soldiers trained in its use.

If this is true, then the 1-month warning is enough to distribute the ATRs and give the men some training, thus increasing the rate of damaged German tanks, especially of the most numerous and vulnerable types. The Germans will mostly remain in control of the battlefields, so they'll retrieve and repair the tanks - but this takes time.
 
Originally posted by KACKO
SOmewhat better, but not that much. First Poles would have had to trust Czecvh pilots or make them train Polish pilots (or both); second, what about ground crews? Are they coming as well? If not, training Polish ground crew s might take some time; third, what about ammo and spare parts? fourth - how would Poles organize those new units?

But assuming that all those problems are solved German Luftwaffe will suffer much bigger losses, considering that Polish/Czechoslovakian pilots have planes fast enough to catch German bombers. With more limited air support Polish campaign will last a week or 2 longer, although I think the German victory would have been certain - just with bigger butcher's bill. And what about the Soviets?
Czech pilots were partially incorporated into Polish Air Force OTL. Not in numbers, as offer to join came to late and most of escaped pilots left for France at the time. Did you hear Josef Frantisek for example?

Biggest problem would be probably training the ground crew. Some of them could make it possibly, but not enough.

Spare parts would be second problem. Some could be loaded before escape but not much. Probably canibalisation of planes would be necessary. On other hand, some engines for Avias B-534 and B-71 could be bought in France.

Ammo. Not sure exactly if Polish ammo would work but I believe same caliber was widely used in same countries. Still, could be manufactured.
 
Originally posted by Kacko
Ammo. Not sure exactly if Polish ammo would work but I believe same caliber was widely used in same countries. Still, could be manufactured.

Poland used the same ammo for rifles and machine guns Czechoslovakia did (Mauser 7,92 mm). I'm worried about cannons.

Czech pilots were partially incorporated into Polish Air Force OTL. Not in numbers, as offer to join came to late and most of escaped pilots left for France at the time. Did you hear Josef Frantisek for example?

I did. However there is a difference between enlisting some pilots (and Poles had excellent pilots of their own) and using whole squadrons of foreign pilots with their own planes. There are questions of different tactics, language problems. In August all those problems will disappear, But earlier

Originally posted by Michele
While we're at it, since we have some knowledgeable posters here. I always wondered if the rumor about the Polish AT rifle were true. Namely, that they treated it as such a super-secret weapon that they did not supply it in time to the frontline units, and even those that received it, anyway had no soldiers trained in its use.

AFAIK it is a myth. Kb Ur wz. 35 was easy to use - it was pretty much a bigger file. Problem was with correct tactics of using it. Those weren't prepared because of secrecy.
 
All of that would come in handy if what we were doing was a continued bombing campaign against Bratislava. We're doing one surprise attack. It will arrive unannounced and get through unhindered.
You can never know if they are going to pass through not spotted. Depends on weather



But we don't give a damn about actually doing real damage. This also helps in getting most of the Karaś back; they can fly as high and as fast as they can, we need no accuracy. It's a propaganda mission.
That's OK, but it could be double edged. Anti Hungarian feelings and support to war against Hungary among soldiers and civilians increased in March 1939 after Hungarians bombed Spiska Nova Ves in surprise attack you are proposing.
Interesting is, that one Hungarian flight bombed at the time Hungarian town Roznava, gained after Vienna 1938. Support for war in Slovakia, which was very low could be increased and instead of sitting on liberated territories, Slovak army could increased support to German troops in field.

Anyway, even if surprise attack is achieved, which is possible, AA deffense will react even if late and can achieve some success. On the other side, return trip will be harder. Fighters from Piestany and Tri Duby could be scrambled and catch Karas bombers on they return trip, there is possibility of German fighters intervention on return. It's long trip home, remember.

a. Indeed this does not vaunt military objectives at all and
b. Do you remember what the Karaś actually achieved in actual history?/QUOTE]
They did have nice achievements, but also high loses due to low level attacks.

So in my opinion strike against Bratislava would be even from propaganda purposes pointless, could just increase antipolish feelings in Slovakia which got very high after Poland occupation of Slovak territories in 1938. Before war started in 1939 situation was getting better and actually government had hard time to sell the war.
 
Poland used the same ammo for rifles and machine guns Czechoslovakia did (Mauser 7,92 mm). I'm worried about cannons.



I did. However there is a difference between enlisting some pilots (and Poles had excellent pilots of their own) and using whole squadrons of foreign pilots with their own planes. There are questions of different tactics, language problems. In August all those problems will disappear, But earlier
I wouldn't worry about cannons too much. ;) Even canon versions of Avia, called Bk-534 had mostly MG instead of canon in axes of propeller due to development problems.

Poland would have 2 possibilities. Actually 3.
1. Return planes (and maybe pilots) to Germany.
2. Use planes and Czech pilots as a trainers for Polish pilots, but I am not sure, if there would be enough young pilots which could be not needed in Polish combat units and bale to transfer from training units to combat units equipped with Czechoslovak planes. So I know Poland had more then enough skilled pilots for their combat units I am not sure they had enough at the time to put them into these new units.
3. Czechoslovak units with Polish communication officer to translate (work for RAF when Czechoslovak and Polish pilots fought in BoB. And let say let them use their own tactics. Even if tactic was no good by Polish opinion, damaged to Nazis will be done free of Charge for Polish state and Air Force. ;) Over 200 B-71 and another 300 S-328, plus 100 Aeros A-100 (old but still) and 75 Aeros MB-200 would be significant bomber force. And over 500 B-534 would increase fighter strength of Polish Air Force. And that's just combat planes.
 
You can never know if they are going to pass through not spotted. Depends on weather




That's OK, but it could be double edged. Anti Hungarian feelings and support to war against Hungary among soldiers and civilians increased in March 1939 after Hungarians bombed Spiska Nova Ves in surprise attack you are proposing.
Interesting is, that one Hungarian flight bombed at the time Hungarian town Roznava, gained after Vienna 1938. Support for war in Slovakia, which was very low could be increased and instead of sitting on liberated territories, Slovak army could increased support to German troops in field.

Anyway, even if surprise attack is achieved, which is possible, AA deffense will react even if late and can achieve some success. On the other side, return trip will be harder. Fighters from Piestany and Tri Duby could be scrambled and catch Karas bombers on they return trip, there is possibility of German fighters intervention on return. It's long trip home, remember.

They did have nice achievements, but also high loses due to low level attacks.

So in my opinion strike against Bratislava would be even from propaganda purposes pointless, could just increase antipolish feelings in Slovakia which got very high after Poland occupation of Slovak territories in 1938. Before war started in 1939 situation was getting better and actually government had hard time to sell the war.

I frankly don't care if the Slovakian population gets angry at the Poles. In the long run, the opinion of other, much stronger, actual or potential allies of Germany counts more than the opinion of puny Slovakia; and that will be that the Germans start wars and have their allies bombed.
And in the short run, what could the Slovakians do, send one more second-rank division? A couple more after a while? Even then, that would not be available within days, and for the Poles it's a matter of what happens within September 15. If they are very very lucky, a long-term commitment of three additional Slovakian divisions means nothing, because the issue will be decided elsewhere anyway; if they are as lucky as their standard - the additional Slovakians also mean nothing.

On top of what this would tell the Italians or the Romanians, the attack would show the Warsawians that they aren't the only one being bombed; and it would show the Western Allies that the Poles are fighting back in the air, too.

Also, I frankly think you are overestimating the chances of non-radar guided interceptors taking off after the bombers have done their deed. Likewise you are expecting too much out of 1939-vintage AA; if we're being generous they might have a 1% chance of hitting something. You yourself mentioned weather; indeed, since we do not need accuracy, some clouds are perfectly acceptable.
Assuming some Slovakian fighters do reach the bombers, or, more likely, the bombers just are unlucky enough to meet some German fighters in the vicinity of Krakow,... again, so what? I'm not talking of using all the bombers for this. Some 50 simply ended the OTL campaign by flying to internment in Romania, so we have room for losses that were not actually incurred in the OTL campaign. If we use just a dozen, that's totally ok with me if 50% are lost. 6 bombers? It's an expenditure worth the result.
 
I frankly don't care if the Slovakian population gets angry at the Poles. In the long run, the opinion of other, much stronger, actual or potential allies of Germany counts more than the opinion of puny Slovakia; and that will be that the Germans start wars and have their allies bombed.
And in the short run, what could the Slovakians do, send one more second-rank division? A couple more after a while? Even then, that would not be available within days, and for the Poles it's a matter of what happens within September 15. If they are very very lucky, a long-term commitment of three additional Slovakian divisions means nothing, because the issue will be decided elsewhere anyway; if they are as lucky as their standard - the additional Slovakians also mean nothing.
On top of what this would tell the Italians or the Romanians, the attack would show the Warsawians that they aren't the only one being bombed; and it would show the Western Allies that the Poles are fighting back in the air, too.

Also, I frankly think you are overestimating the chances of non-radar guided interceptors taking off after the bombers have done their deed. Likewise you are expecting too much out of 1939-vintage AA; if we're being generous they might have a 1% chance of hitting something. You yourself mentioned weather; indeed, since we do not need accuracy, some clouds are perfectly acceptable.
Assuming some Slovakian fighters do reach the bombers, or, more likely, the bombers just are unlucky enough to meet some German fighters in the vicinity of Krakow,... again, so what? I'm not talking of using all the bombers for this. Some 50 simply ended the OTL campaign by flying to internment in Romania, so we have room for losses that were not actually incurred in the OTL campaign. If we use just a dozen, that's totally ok with me if 50% are lost. 6 bombers? It's an expenditure worth the result.
Well depends how many planes are going to be used. Anyway, for that day these planes could do nothing else. Exactly what I think. Tiny Slovakia means almost nothing in bigger game. German mountain divisions are already stationed there. Best and strongest Slovak units are already on the border even if not very prone to engage. They can push few more km, they can join effort of German mountain divisions from the eastern Slovakia.
If you don't care about propaganda issues, and stronger antipolish feelings that's fine, especially if you just want to show people of Poland that we are alsobombing enemy civilians, why not. But in neutral countries it may be seen differently.

My point is, that it is total waste of small military assets Poland has.

I am not really overestimating AA defense at the time. Probably more planes Poland would loose due to accidents then to Slovak/ German action. Flying in Slovak mountains at the time was very treacherous. Especially if there was low overcast. These not familiar with that could pay. And of course, you are forgetting, that Karas had same amounts of casaulties due to accidents as to enemy acctions. Which is not surprising for the time. Hell, pilots in Karas bombers can make same mistake Hungarians did in March 1938 and instead of Bratislava they will bomb Hungarian Komarn. That would be interesting development. :D
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberger
October, the first week, is the likely time a larger French offensive would start. The mobilization of the Active and 'A' series divisions was complete, as well as the equivalents for the non divisional Corps and Army personel. Artillery would have time to mass on the front, so combined arms corps of infantry, artillery, and tanks could start a attack designed to break down the main defense zone of the Germans. What the French plans for this point were I cant say, but the mobilization schedule had the pieces in place for this by early October.

By late October the series B divisions were or nearly were all mobilized, so one would think there would be sufficient cannon fodder for continuing or renewing the attack into the Rhineland. The amount of heavy artillery the French could have massed along this narrow front is impressive.

All true, but the French would have been ready to launch an intermediate operation (halfway between the actual demonstration attack and this larger offensive) by mid-September.
It's not as if they can achieve a lot, and certainly they can't achieve what a wholehearted offensive with all forces ready might achieve a further 2-3 weeks later. But anything is better than what happened in OTL, i.e. nothing else after the initial move.

The nice thing about this all is that it's difficult to do worse than in actual history.

I have often wondered what the actual French plans were for September-December? A few third hand bits have passed by, but nothing I would repeat. Looking closely at the 'Saar Offensive ' of early September it looks a lot like a out post clearing operation in preperation for something larger to follow. I'd have thought this question would have been addressed by the many English language historians of the early war years. It appears not, them remark how the French leaders were suprised by how fast the Polish Army was destroyed and move on to other subjects.
 
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