Once More With Feeling: West African Slavery

The way to be rid of slavery is to have more modern farming techniques be developed so you don't need the sheer numbers only slavery can economically provide.
 
Sorry Strategos' Risk, I don't think Celtic slavery will work very well in the US SE or farther south if the crop is sugar, which seems the most likely crop. They will die off much quicker and be more of a flight risk. There might be some Celt-on-Celt indentured servitude.

The way to be rid of slavery is to have more modern farming techniques be developed so you don't need the sheer numbers only slavery can economically provide.
The problem is that even today sugarcane is still a very labor intensive crop. You need the kind of mechanical harvesting tech that's only been used in the last 50-60 years or so to make that work. It is extremely depressing to me that given the New World and Sugar, that black slavery seems almost inevitable absent African states actively preventing it and at this point, why would they without knowing the future?
 
I am just spitting out ideas now but the reason or at least this is what I think that slavery was banished in Europe for sometime in europe was due to Feudalism.
If the West african countries have a feudal like system of governing we might just see the practice of the slave trade to be dieing out and or be on low scale.
 

yourworstnightmare

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I am just spitting out ideas now but the reason or at least this is what I think that slavery was banished in Europe for sometime in europe was due to Feudalism.
If the West african countries have a feudal like system of governing we might just see the practice of the slave trade to be dieing out and or be on low scale.
Well, slavery was not banned in Europe. Slavery was very alive in Italy, Spain the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Why slavery had died in France, Western Germany, Britain, the Lowlands and Scandinavia is unsure, but it was not banned there.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Another way to demote West african slavery is to have the Africans learn how to make use and learn gun warfare if this happens I don't think the West africans will have any reason to go and enslave themselves over foreign commodities.

Also If you tie it too what I said earlier the Colonising power's will might try to create their own source of free or cheap labor. This might mean humanizing working conditions in order to attract more workers.

AFAIK the Europeans didn't go inland to capture slaves themselves. The African kingdoms captured people and sold them to the Europeans on the coast. Guns spreading won't help a thing unless you want it to spread to every remote village in the region which is pretty unlikely.
 

yourworstnightmare

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AFAIK the Europeans didn't go inland to capture slaves themselves. The African kingdoms captured people and sold them to the Europeans on the coast. Guns spreading won't help a thing unless you want it to spread to every remote village in the region which is pretty unlikely.
Actually the Portuguese tried to capture slaves themselves early on. They were beaten badly by the Africans even though the Portuguese had guns and the Africans hadn't. So Europeans capturing Africans themselves just wouldn't work. No way to cut out the middlemen.
 
AFAIK the Europeans didn't go inland to capture slaves themselves. The African kingdoms captured people and sold them to the Europeans on the coast. Guns spreading won't help a thing unless you want it to spread to every remote village in the region which is pretty unlikely.

Well I meant that with the knowledge of guns that with that they can form their own sort of trade system... And maybe kick out the european trading partner
 
Well, slavery was not banned in Europe. Slavery was very alive in Italy, Spain the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Why slavery had died in France, Western Germany, Britain, the Lowlands and Scandinavia is unsure, but it was not banned there.
Think about location. Spain and Italy were next to Muslims and enslaving Muslim war captives was seen very differently than enslaving fellow Christians. The Balkans and Eastern Europe of course, were where the slavs were and closer to the slave markets of the east. Capturing slaves and selling them to the Byzantines (later Ottomans) or eastern Islamic powers was still a profitable business.

As for the north....

Domesdaybook.net
If the recorded slaves were all individuals, they constituted little more than 2% of the population, since the totals for other groups are normally multiplied by a factor of 4-5 on the assumption that the numbers represent heads of families rather than individual peasants. These divergent estimates are of real consequence. The lower figure would certainly help to explain the rapid disappearance of slavery after the Conquest. However, the most recent investigations have concluded that slaves were probably counted on the same basis as other social groups, in which case they formed 10% of the population. In this case, their virtual disappearance within a generation of 1086 was a remarkable social transformation aided, perhaps, by a tendency by lords to endow slaves to perform their ploughing functions as 'free ploughmen'.
I'd say serfdom had a lot to do with it. Though in Scandinavia I'd wonder to what extent they engaged in the slave trade in the eastern Baltic along with other trade. Also I'd say low population would make it difficult to export a lot of slaves without causing damage to the domestic economy.

Why? They profited from the trade.
This is why I noted above that unless the African states were against it, it would happen--and why would they be against it? For a long time it was a good source of income (and also didn't deplete the population too badly after some new crops were introduced).
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
Think about location. Spain and Italy were next to Muslims and enslaving Muslim war captives was seen very differently than enslaving fellow Christians. The Balkans and Eastern Europe of course, were where the slavs were and closer to the slave markets of the east. Capturing slaves and selling them to the Byzantines (later Ottomans) or eastern Islamic powers was still a profitable business.

As for the north....

Domesdaybook.net
If the recorded slaves were all individuals, they constituted little more than 2% of the population, since the totals for other groups are normally multiplied by a factor of 4-5 on the assumption that the numbers represent heads of families rather than individual peasants. These divergent estimates are of real consequence. The lower figure would certainly help to explain the rapid disappearance of slavery after the Conquest. However, the most recent investigations have concluded that slaves were probably counted on the same basis as other social groups, in which case they formed 10% of the population. In this case, their virtual disappearance within a generation of 1086 was a remarkable social transformation aided, perhaps, by a tendency by lords to endow slaves to perform their ploughing functions as 'free ploughmen'.
I'd say serfdom had a lot to do with it. Though in Scandinavia I'd wonder to what extent they engaged in the slave trade in the eastern Baltic along with other trade. Also I'd say low population would make it difficult to export a lot of slaves without causing damage to the domestic economy.

Sacndinavia had slaves (thralls) at least until the early 1100s, then for some reason they disappeared. Probably a combination of many things. Scandinavia had become Christian and after the expansion into Finland they weren't on the religious frontier anymore (sources about slavery in Finland are bad, it existed, but no one knows to what extent). The Viking raids stopped, and even thought there were raids into the Baltics, the Scandinavians soon faced resistance from Teutonic Knights and Poles. Another important factor might be that having tenants who lived on the outskirt of a rich peasant or noble's land, fended for himself and paid rent in choirs became more profitable, and many were freed so they could become tenants. And of course after Christianity slaves didn't inherit their status anymore, since children of slaves were born Christian.

However all this is speculation. There's no clear evidence that show us exactly why slavery disappeared in Scandinavia in the 1100s.
 
I'm not sure if this thread is still alive but I still have a few more ideas... If by chance you can get another commodity other than slaves to be the leading export of west africa. Then slaves will be used for either internal markets or will be replaced by cheap labor... also take into fact that because the slave trade was such a profitable bussiness west africa, West Africa was in a constant state of warfare... If you can bring peace to west africa or have a commidity that is coveted more than slaves you will probably see states that are competing with eachother a lot more peacebly then just ruthelessly raiding everything in sight. And have a stronger africa that would be ready to defeat it's more agressive neighbors. (the europeans)


Also since the West african states you were talking about were christian the slave trade will be a lot more humane... due to the whole religious issue not being involved in the Atlantic slave trade.
 
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