What type of POD would we need to bypass the whole “dark ages†but still have history move along more or less OTL (i.e. have the Roman Empire fall on schedule – or near to – and yet avoid the debilitating loss of tech and knowledge). Or, were the “dark ages†inevitable given the invasions and wars that occurred in the vacuum of power that came with the collapse of the Roman Empire?
On the shoulders of greatness
- Thread starter Tynnin
- Start date
Perhaps Justinian doesn't invade Italy, leaving a unified Italy under Ostrogothic control. The Franks still establish their dominion per OTL, but they don't get up invading Italy to empower the Pope, which leads to no HRE entanglements in Italy in the future. That, plus the Italian wars probably led to loss of knowledge due to books being trashed in the fighting, etc.
Thus, we have a unified Kingdom of Italy, a more unified HRE in the future (the Emperors will have more power because they won't be wasting all their time in Italy), and a stronger Byzantium.
Thing is, how will these butterflies affect the Vikings, Muslims, and Magyars? Their attacks, when combined with the disintegration of Charlemagne's empire under his sons and grandsons, helped make the Dark Ages dark (though, to their credit, the Muslims preserved a lot of classical knowledge themselves).
Thus, we have a unified Kingdom of Italy, a more unified HRE in the future (the Emperors will have more power because they won't be wasting all their time in Italy), and a stronger Byzantium.
Thing is, how will these butterflies affect the Vikings, Muslims, and Magyars? Their attacks, when combined with the disintegration of Charlemagne's empire under his sons and grandsons, helped make the Dark Ages dark (though, to their credit, the Muslims preserved a lot of classical knowledge themselves).
I think if we can avoid the Christian-Muslim divide one way or the other (Muhamad converting to Christianity and becoming the Apostle of the Arabs, or Constantinople falling and Europe being converted, or there simply not being an Islam), were halfway there. Then, nix the Roman Catholic heresy. The 'Dark Ages' in the traditionally accepted form only happened to Southern and Western Europe. The Balkans had theirs later, and Byzantium and the Muslim world didn't get there at all. Of course, there would still be the military crisis of the 5th century and the economic disaster of the 6th (either could be alleviated for even lighter dark ages), but Wesdtern Europe, once it comes round from the dark 6th century, would have a more receptive and more familiar world to deal with in the 7th and 8th centuries.
The best bet to avoid the dark ages would be to have more successful successors states in the west, in particular in Italy (no Byzantine reconquest wars) and Spain (successful resistance to the Moslem invasion, if any).
I think there was a TL here some time ago which postulated an ultimate dinastic joining of Western and Eastern Goths.
I think there was a TL here some time ago which postulated an ultimate dinastic joining of Western and Eastern Goths.
IMO the best bet to avoid the dark ages would be to avoid the Plague of the 6thC that seems to have been about as bad as the 14C Black Death. Without it the economic base that supported the educated class that kept learning alive would be in much better shape and there'd be mote raxpayers to support the armies too.
No Varo disaster. The Germans are colonized and Romanized. The new province(s) aren't that rich, in terms of gold, but have minerals, good agricultural land, and a lot of good soldiers. These resources are used in the first 20 years after conquest to periodically re-conquest the Germans (Vercingétorix v.2.0, 2.1, etc) until pacification is achieved.
Afterwards, the Romans don't expand much more in central Europe, too many problems elsewere, but make many Slav tribes tributaries and allies. Roman culture irradiates to Eastern Europe. When the Goths arrive there, say 2 centuries after, even before invading roman lands they meet stronger, more sophisticated, semi-urbanized tribes that put a bit more of resistance to their advance. More important, the Goths learn to value things like writing, centralized organization, and bureaucracy. They're halfway there!
Then those unreconstructed barbarians, the Huns, appear. Rome activates the Slavs alliances, the great German soldiers, the Goth refugees...and gets trumped up, but not nearly as bad as in OTL. The Empire is in decline, for economic reasons and civil strife, but the Huns don't make it to Rome's portas: they are stopped at present-day Munich.
The Empire falls, perhaps a bit later. It falls because the Goths are unassimilated and agressive, General A is busy fighting General B and C, and the economy doesnt' permit the fielding of decent armies. The Empire was partitioned before, let's say the Easter Empire gets spared (it is a coin toss, really).
But now, the barbarians aren't that barbarous. They are more cultivated, love cities, and everything else. And Germania is a urban country that has been unified for centuries and has a national identity that permits the creation of a German national state in the XIII century.
Still a lot of fighting and general nastiness, but better that OTL, especially for the Germans.
Afterwards, the Romans don't expand much more in central Europe, too many problems elsewere, but make many Slav tribes tributaries and allies. Roman culture irradiates to Eastern Europe. When the Goths arrive there, say 2 centuries after, even before invading roman lands they meet stronger, more sophisticated, semi-urbanized tribes that put a bit more of resistance to their advance. More important, the Goths learn to value things like writing, centralized organization, and bureaucracy. They're halfway there!
Then those unreconstructed barbarians, the Huns, appear. Rome activates the Slavs alliances, the great German soldiers, the Goth refugees...and gets trumped up, but not nearly as bad as in OTL. The Empire is in decline, for economic reasons and civil strife, but the Huns don't make it to Rome's portas: they are stopped at present-day Munich.
The Empire falls, perhaps a bit later. It falls because the Goths are unassimilated and agressive, General A is busy fighting General B and C, and the economy doesnt' permit the fielding of decent armies. The Empire was partitioned before, let's say the Easter Empire gets spared (it is a coin toss, really).
But now, the barbarians aren't that barbarous. They are more cultivated, love cities, and everything else. And Germania is a urban country that has been unified for centuries and has a national identity that permits the creation of a German national state in the XIII century.
Still a lot of fighting and general nastiness, but better that OTL, especially for the Germans.
I've wondered about this, what if Ceasar's troops don't get carried away burning Alexandria's docks and the Great Library of Alexandria is not destroyed. It contained a good portion of the knowledge available to the planet at that point.
Another thing would have the Romans realize the practical applications of (I think it was called the "Steam Wheel" not certain though) instead of viewing it at a sort of scientific novelty. An industrial revolution occurs but Rome falls after a natural calmity, say around the year 600 a asteroid blows up about 6 miles above the Earth raining fire and molten ore down into the forests of Germany and spreading so much ash and debris about that worlwide plant growth is diminished for five years or so...mass famine and starvation so the empire still falls apart, but the Library is still there and equipment from the Industrial Revolution is still about. Things are dark for a while as societies reform from the catastrophe but the drop off isn't as bad.
Hmmmm....Colombus to the Moon?
Another thing would have the Romans realize the practical applications of (I think it was called the "Steam Wheel" not certain though) instead of viewing it at a sort of scientific novelty. An industrial revolution occurs but Rome falls after a natural calmity, say around the year 600 a asteroid blows up about 6 miles above the Earth raining fire and molten ore down into the forests of Germany and spreading so much ash and debris about that worlwide plant growth is diminished for five years or so...mass famine and starvation so the empire still falls apart, but the Library is still there and equipment from the Industrial Revolution is still about. Things are dark for a while as societies reform from the catastrophe but the drop off isn't as bad.
Hmmmm....Colombus to the Moon?
Falcon1976 said:
Please, not again.
The Museion library was not the mystic receptacle of the world's knowledge. It was roughly equivalent to a copyright library, and it was not the only one of its kind, just the largest. When the fire destroyed parts of it in Caesar's time, the loss was not irreparable in knowledge terms, though many precious antique originals were lost. What you need is not miraculously preserving the Museion from its various calamities (burning by Caesar, the Bukoles, the Palmyrenes, Aurelian, Diocletian, St Cyril, Amr al-As) but someone using it - or any other major library - past AD 500.
A big probllem with the time between 400 and about 800 is the clima. In this timeframe we have a declline of temperature and therefore less food for the people and so a decllining population. So it is very difficult to avoid a decline of culture.
We must get better agricultural knowledge or a new crop to achive No Dark ages.
We must get better agricultural knowledge or a new crop to achive No Dark ages.