On Switzerland...

Two questions came to my mind.

1)Seems Switzerland was always some sort of Confederative Republic. Was there anyway for it to have become a Monarchy?

2)Are there any way Switzerland could have become smaller or larger than it is today?
 
Two questions came to my mind.

1)Seems Switzerland was always some sort of Confederative Republic. Was there anyway for it to have become a Monarchy?

2)Are there any way Switzerland could have become smaller or larger than it is today?

If I have read Swiss history correctly the Swiss Confederation began as a revolt against their being ruled by the Austrian Monarchy. Without that revolt what we would see is the German speaking cantons being incorporated into Austria and other German states. And the French and Italian speaking cantons incorporated into France and Italy respectively.

What would be the point otherwise?

From my understanding of the Swiss attitude towards any kind of an overlord, a Swiss monarchy would require the intervention of Wally the Alien Space Bat. ;)
 
Revolting against being (mis)ruled by the Habsburgs is not necessarily the same as revolting against monarchy, but I doubt that the Swiss are going to come up with the idea of that sort of government - the core are Imperial free cities, with special rights and privileges, and they're going to want a government focused around that rather than a duke or king.

Pretty easy for Switzerland to win a few more wars or a few less, I think.
 
Revolting against being (mis)ruled by the Habsburgs is not necessarily the same as revolting against monarchy, but I doubt that the Swiss are going to come up with the idea of that sort of government - the core are Imperial free cities, with special rights and privileges, and they're going to want a government focused around that rather than a duke or king.

Pretty easy for Switzerland to win a few more wars or a few less, I think.

But many of them weren't always free cities, they gained that status after their dynastycal overlords went extinct without heirs. Maybe if we keep the House of Kyburg and the dukes of Zähringen surviving then Switzerland would continue to be similar to other regions of the HRE.
 
2)Are there any way Switzerland could have become smaller or larger than it is today?

Yes, but only a bit. The Swiss expanded largely by inviting other nearby states to join them in their coalition against the Hapsburg. They invited a few states who never entered or left after a while - the German city of Mulhausen was part of the Confederacy for a while - but don't make the mistake of thinking that, because the Swiss had a fearsome reputation fighting Burgundy and as mercenaries in the 15th-16th doesn't mean they would be good as a conquering Empire. Their existence as a state was essentially safeguarded by the ultra-defensive nature of the Swiss Alps. If they expanded out past the Alps they would find it a lot harder to win defensive wars. I'd say the amount they expanded was a pretty healthy size for them to have reached.
 
But many of them weren't always free cities, they gained that status after their dynastycal overlords went extinct without heirs. Maybe if we keep the House of Kyburg and the dukes of Zähringen surviving then Switzerland would continue to be similar to other regions of the HRE.

Yeah, but in such a case as that there might not be a Switzerland in the sense we're thinking of at all.
 

Thande

Donor
Jared has a monarchy imposed on Switzerland by the reactionary powers at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 in Decades of Darkness, which is reasonable. Needless to say, the united Swiss Kingdom doesn't last and the resulting revolution during 1848 leads to a break-up and the incorporation of most of OTL Switzerland into Germany.
 
Jared has a monarchy imposed on Switzerland by the reactionary powers at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 in Decades of Darkness, which is reasonable. Needless to say, the united Swiss Kingdom doesn't last and the resulting revolution during 1848 leads to a break-up and the incorporation of most of OTL Switzerland into Germany.

If I can ask, Thande, what was Jared's logic? What's the point in an arbitrary imposition of an arbitrary monarch on an arbitrary choice of country? I can't see what they would think it would achieve.
 

Thande

Donor
If I can ask, Thande, what was Jared's logic? What's the point in an arbitrary imposition of an arbitrary monarch on an arbitrary choice of country? I can't see what they would think it would achieve.

Because the Swiss Confederacy was a republican state and the Congress Powers were a tad paranoid after the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Also because Prussia and Austria had more influence at the Congress and Britain had less, because in Decades of Darkness Napoleon defeated Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo only to then be defeated in turn by Blücher in a separate battle.
 
Because the Swiss Confederacy was a republican state and the Congress Powers were a tad paranoid after the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Also because Prussia and Austria had more influence at the Congress and Britain had less, because in Decades of Darkness Napoleon defeated Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo only to then be defeated in turn by Blücher in a separate battle.

Hmm. I have to say that I don't think that's very likely, but I respect Jared for his TL.
 
Speaking about Switzerland, in my timeline (which I realy plan to continue one day) I had the idea of France capturing Geneva somewhere around the late 17th century I(and kicking all the protestants out). How likely is such a thing and how could it happen?
 
But many of them weren't always free cities, they gained that status after their dynastycal overlords went extinct without heirs. Maybe if we keep the House of Kyburg and the dukes of Zähringen surviving then Switzerland would continue to be similar to other regions of the HRE.


In many ways, Switzerland as we know it seems to have been an historical fluke. The lapse of its ruling dynasties left the local communities with no overlord except the HRE, which effectively meant no overlord at all most of the time. By the time the Habsburgs tried to impose a "return to normalcy" the Swiss had grown accustomed to the situation and resisted. And the rest is history - -

I gather similar rthings were attempted elsewhere, but less successfully. Frex, there was a sort of peasant republic, very like the Swiss "Forest Cantons" in the Ditmarsch, but the Kings of Denmark conquered it in the 16C.

Had the ruling houses not lapsed when they did, Switzerland might have followed the pattern of Tyrol, also a country of free peasants, but which never rejected monarchy. Perhgaps a King of Switzerland (or whatever it's called TTL) eventually inherits Austria or bavaria and becomes the major German power.
 
If I can ask, Thande, what was Jared's logic? What's the point in an arbitrary imposition of an arbitrary monarch on an arbitrary choice of country? I can't see what they would think it would achieve.

Because the Swiss Confederacy was a republican state and the Congress Powers were a tad paranoid after the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Also because Prussia and Austria had more influence at the Congress and Britain had less, because in Decades of Darkness Napoleon defeated Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo only to then be defeated in turn by Blücher in a separate battle.

This is part of the story, but there was more going on.

Austria and Prussia had greater influence than in OTL due to the circumstances of the *Battle of Waterloo. However, Britain was also more anti-republican than in OTL, thanks to worse experiences of the *USA in this TL, and so was more inclined to go along with the anti-republican sentiments of Austria and Prussia (and, for that matter, Russia).

The specific proposal to instal a monarchy in Switzerland had other reasons, though. Prussia (thanks to its greater influence) was pushing to take all of Saxony, in exchange for cessions elsewhere. (Less of the Rhineland than in OTL, for instance). Given the principles of the Congress, though, they weren't going to do that unless they could find a suitable new throne for the displaced King of Saxony.

Switzerland was the place chosen, but the deal was more nuanced than simply imposing a random monarch on Switzerland. The deal was that Switzerland was that Prussia abandoned its claims to Neuchatel, giving that to Switzerland as a new canton, in exchange for accepting the King of Saxony as a monarch.

In OTL, Neuchatel became both a Swiss canton and a Prussian principality in 1815, which caused problems later. ITTL, Switzerland gets Neuchatel and a monarch whose declared role is to arbitrate between the cantons (something which did cause some problems in OTL around this period). Switzerland isn't entirely happy with this deal, to put it mildly, but the Great Powers in Vienna are all lined up in support of it, and the gain of Neuchatel does make the deal at least somewhat palatable.

(The monarchy would eventually collapse, but that's another story.)
 
Two questions came to my mind.

1)Seems Switzerland was always some sort of Confederative Republic. Was there anyway for it to have become a Monarchy?

2)Are there any way Switzerland could have become smaller or larger than it is today?

1) Napoleon largely replaced all of the other client-republics with client-monarchies; had he been more successful it is logical the Swiss would have met the same fate eventually.

Alternatively other unitary systems, or confederations bonded by other ideologies, were possible. A Swiss Communist state, even if short-lived, is not ASB however unlikely.

2) The Sonderbund war could end in favor of the Sonderbund, which would create a weaker confederation with separatists elements. Ticno and the rest the Italian-speaking population could leave to join a unified Italy if things go just right. Conversely Cantons historically outside of Switzerland such as Thurgau, St. Gallen, Valais, Graubünden, and Neuchâtel could either stay outside of the Confederacy in an alt-Napoleonic period, or leave the even-shorter lived Helvetic Republic following a less-successful Napoleon's fall from power.

Larger is a bit more of problem. Perhaps, again in an alt-Napoleonic period, Valtellina and Bormio remain apart of the Swiss system instead of joining Italy, while the northern enclave of Mulhouse, and perhaps even Rottweil, both remain apart of the Confederacy.

I'm not sure how you could change either of those two points the way you want OP, without fundamentally changing the region into something we would not recognize as Switzerland.
 
How about Napoleon giving it a king, like he did with most of the republics in France's orbit? Maybe he gives it to Eugene?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
How about Napoleon giving it a king, like he did with most of the republics in France's orbit? Maybe he gives it to Eugene?

Eugene was already Prince of Venise : this made him heir to the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy (of which he was already viceroy). Plus, he was also the heir of Karl Maria von Dalberg, Grand Duke of Frankfurt (Eugene was even technically Duke from October to December 1813). So I don't think he would got Switzerland as a Kingdom from Napoleon's hands.

Assuming Napoleon gets Switzerland into a Kingdom (not sure he would), here the possible rulers I see :
-A member of his family. Louis and Lucien are probably out since they are out of favor with Napoleon and most of Napoleon's brothers and sisters already have a kingdom. A nephew of the Empereur could be a possibility though.
-One of Napoleon's Marshall. Napoleon already has Bernadotte as King of Sweden (though Bernadotte is not really friendly) and I think he could have one of his most loyal general as King of the Swiss. Maybe Davout.
-A foreign prince allied to Napoleonic France.
 
Eugene was already Prince of Venise : this made him heir to the Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy (of which he was already viceroy). Plus, he was also the heir of Karl Maria von Dalberg, Grand Duke of Frankfurt (Eugene was even technically Duke from October to December 1813). So I don't think he would got Switzerland as a Kingdom from Napoleon's hands.

Assuming Napoleon gets Switzerland into a Kingdom (not sure he would), here the possible rulers I see :
-A member of his family. Louis and Lucien are probably out since they are out of favor with Napoleon and most of Napoleon's brothers and sisters already have a kingdom. A nephew of the Empereur could be a possibility though.
-One of Napoleon's Marshall. Napoleon already has Bernadotte as King of Sweden (though Bernadotte is not really friendly) and I think he could have one of his most loyal general as King of the Swiss. Maybe Davout.
-A foreign prince allied to Napoleonic France.

Davout's not a bad bet, from what I've read he was in line for something if the invasion of Russia had gone to plan

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Top