On Polish Suvalkija.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's the tendency to attach Suvalkija up to the Nemunas River to an independent Poland, often in the form of a panhandle, in AH maps and timelines. If you are not picturing it in your mind yet, here is a visual representation of what I am talking about:

192px-KP_gubernia_suwalska_1910.svg.png


I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate it anytime when I see this happen. It irritates me as much as successful Sealion threads irritate British members, or as much as French surrender monkey jokes irritate French members.

Why? Because Polish Suvalkija is impossible without the intricate circumstances which happened in OTL to make it happen (for a grand total of 20 or so years, maybe a bit more).

You see... Before the end of the 18th century (and, in almost all ways, also afterwards) Suvalkija was a land integral to Lithuania as much as Samogitia or Aukštaitija. Much like Samogitia once used to be inhabited by a Baltic tribe which assimilated into the Lithuanians, the same happened in Suvalkija (which is where the alternative name for the region, Sudovia, comes from). It was only in 1795 that the region was split from the rest of it's ethnic territory - in the Partitions of the Commonwealth, of course.

We like to joke about the arbitrary borders made by the colonizers in Africa, but really, the borders set by the Partitions were almost as bad. Entirely new borders were drawn, splitting ethnicities in the Commonwealth between the partitioners at their whim - and this exact thing happened in Lithuania, too. For one reason or another, Prussia and Russia decided that the border between them should go along the Nemunas, and this way, they created the abomination. Fast forward 10 years, and in 1807, after the Treaty of Tilsit, Napoleon threw a bone to the Poles and reorganized the territory Prussia got in the Second and Third Partitions into the Duchy of Warsaw, almost accidentally giving this Polish state parts of Lithuania in the process. So while the arbitrary nature of the Partitions separated Suvalkija from Lithuania, Napoleon's successes in his wars resulted in it being attached to Poland, setting up the cliche.

It didn't matter much at the time, of course, because as the Poles hoped, Napoleon will soon hand them the rest of the territories they lost in the Partitions, including the rest of Lithuania, but, surprise, that didn't end up happening, and a slightly smaller Congress Poland - but still with Suvalkija up to the Nemunas - became an autonomous part of Russia instead. This kingdom lasted a mere 16 years before being incorporated into Russia... and that's it! Poland never specifically laid claims on Suvalkija ever again - in fact, the parts of Suvalkija which belong to Lithuania in OTL are perhaps the most Lithuanian parts of the country, and were also the source of the Lithuanian National Revival. During World War I, Suvalkija became a part of the established Republic of Lithuania, staying with it until today.

So, after this long diatribe, what do I have to say about this?

1) Having Suvalkija be owned by an independent Poland is only possible with a very specific set of circumstances (the Partitions of the Commonwealth happen as in OTL, the Duchy of Warsaw is still founded like in OTL, which basically removes any major pre-Napoleonic POD);

2) The possibility of a Polish Suvalkija border is only possible in the first half of the 19th century, and even then, it is almost certainly not going to be long-lasting - either Poland retakes Lithuania, or geopolitical and strategic pressures will force them to abandon Suvalkija one way or another;

3) If you want to have Poland own Suvalkija regardless, even having them hold it as far as into the 20th century, or even the 21st (god forbid!), then trust me, I will find you and I will force you to write about how Poland deals with a large, densely packed and angry Lithuanian minority in the north and how it impacts their relations with whoever holds the rest of Lithuania.
 
I understand that in Commonwealth times, the area was Lithuanian majority but ethnically mixed, with the southern parts more Polish? Does the current section of the Polish-Lithuanian border (with the region split with the largest part being in Lithuania and the rest in Poland) reflect, however roughly, the historical ethnic makeup?
 
I understand that in Commonwealth times, the area was Lithuanian majority but ethnically mixed, with the southern parts more Polish? Does the current section of the Polish-Lithuanian border (with the region split with the largest part being in Lithuania and the rest in Poland) reflect, however roughly, the historical ethnic makeup?
The Lithuanian-Polish ethnic border used to be more to the south in the past. Towns such as Sejny (famous for being the place where one of the best Lithuanian novels of all time, "Altorių šešėly", takes place) once used to be ethnically Lithuanian.
 
The Lithuanian-Polish ethnic border used to be more to the south in the past. Towns such as Sejny (famous for being the place where one of the best Lithuanian novels of all time, "Altorių šešėly", takes place) once used to be ethnically Lithuanian.
Well, one could also say that national identies worked very differently in the past. I'd guess that many areas who solidified into a Lithuanian or Polish identity later on had long histories of bilingualism. Not mentioning all the population exchanges, ethnic cleansings, massacres and general unpleasantness and trampling over Eastern Europe experienced in the twentieth century.
 
Well, one could also say that national identies worked very differently in the past. I'd guess that many areas who solidified into a Lithuanian or Polish identity later on had long histories of bilingualism. Not mentioning all the population exchanges, ethnic cleansings, massacres and general unpleasantness and trampling over Eastern Europe experienced in the twentieth century.
Indeed.
 
It irritates me as much as successful Sealion threads irritate British members, or as much as French surrender monkey jokes irritate French members.
As it happens my own AH pet peeve is Lithuania-related. It's the idea that after WWI Poland could be given access to the sea via Lithuania instead of the Corridor.
 
As it happens my own AH pet peeve is Lithuania-related. It's the idea that after WWI Poland could be given access to the sea via Lithuania instead of the Corridor.
Same here. Lithuania didn't even have sea access during the period when Poland annexing Lithuania was possible - Latvia gave a small strip of coast to Lithuania in 1921-22 border negotiations, and Lithuania only acquired a port in the form of Klaipėda in 1923, both after the armed Polish-Lithuanian conflict ceased.
 
Same here. Lithuania didn't even have sea access during the period when Poland annexing Lithuania was possible - Latvia gave a small strip of coast to Lithuania in 1921-22 border negotiations, and Lithuania only acquired a port in the form of Klaipėda in 1923, both after the armed Polish-Lithuanian conflict ceased.
Do you think that Poland annexing Lithuania in the aftermath of WWI is even remotely realistic in itself? (Regardless of the sea access thing).
 
Do you think that Poland annexing Lithuania in the aftermath of WWI is even remotely realistic in itself? (Regardless of the sea access thing).
It is possible in theory, but in practice, it would be a hindrance to the Poles than a boon - it would worsen their relations with the Entente, Germany and the USSR and it would grant Poland plenty of exploitable internal instability, all in exchange for a not very prosperous agricultural land.
 
I think Polish Suvalkija is possible at least in two cases:
-Congress Poland keeps (lack of November Uprising) or regain (lack of January Uprising) autonomy/quasi-statehood. Russians who will be the ones owning rest of Lithuania would not mind that borders of their puppet/autonomous province don't match ethnic borders (from Russian POV ethnic mess is even better)-after all who'll care in Petersburg about one "papist" nation rulling over another while both are still under Russian control?
-Prussia-Poland created after Congress of Vienna including whole Austrian and Prussian partition of PLC (eventually if German unification still happened somehow, perhaps as result of Republican Revolution, Polish Parts minus West Prussia could be turned by Germans into vassal republic, buffer against Russian Empire.
Although in both cases Poland is not independent but Russian or Prussian/German puppet and Poles have as much to say about shape of their borders as they did in 1945.

"Viennese" borders in Poland were damn freak IMHO. Not only they followed rivers everywhere where it was possible (only longer parts of border of Congress Poland that did not followed rivers were in the north where they followed pre-partition border between PLC and Prussia) thus cutting regions which were previously united economically and culturally-rivers at this time were ROADS, not barriers, they also divided all historical capitals of Poland-each partitioner get one. In Vienna nations were cut into pieces like cakes. Which was sadly inevitable then-logic of the Congress was: country A has to be given X amount of land to counterbalance country B, thus country C must be compensated with land Y and so on.

Strangest (and ugliest) part of Congress Poland border was that tiny corridor to Augustów-it was in practice even narrower than it seems because of marshes covering valley of Biebrza river. With Białystok Circle not taken by Russia border would look way more logical.
 
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