On eastern shores – A Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Alcsentre Calanice
- Start date
He just fixed the Canal of the Pharaohs, he didn't build a whole new one >.<
We're talking about Roman Emperors. They aren't exactly known for being economic and administrative geniuses. I could see any one of them with the available resources doing this just because they could.
Of course, it could also be such an extensive overhaul of the existing canal that it would essentially be a new one.
.It's a very interesting timeline, don't give it up.
will the new trade route change the local economy of Axum or the Arabian kingdoms in Today's Yemen?
will the new trade route change the local economy of Axum or the Arabian kingdoms in Today's Yemen?
I have no intend to do so.
Yes, the Arabian Kingdoms suffer a lot from the new trade routes, since the Romans can bypass Arabian traders and do the commerce alone.
The Arabs are concentrating on piracy, but the Roman Classis Persica (Persian Fleet) is struggling to keep the waters safe.
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Caput Quintus: Hadrian's scheme
Publius Aelius Hadrianus, one of Trajan's relative, and originated in the Hispanian city of Italica, just like Trajan, was considered as the best candidate for the imperial throne. However, he was discarded by the emperor because of its anti-expansionist stance and totally surprisingly replaced with the governor of Judea and war hero Lusius Quietus.
When he heard of Quietus' adoption, Hadrian (by this time governor of Syria and military commander of the eastern operations) considered rebelling against the new emperor to assume his due role. However, though being a quite gifted leader, he knew that he had not the popularity with the soldiers Quietus' had.
Indeed, Hadrian was an intellectual strongly interested in Greek culture. Even if the Roman Empire was in fact of Greco-Roman culture, Hadrian was even more hellenized and called Graeculus (Greekling) by his contemporaries. He was in many aspects not the traditional Roman aristocrat, and at bottom not a person apt for the office of emperor.
But he was totally capable of influencing the Roman society on other levels, and that is what he eventually did. His first concern was to gointo exile in Mesene, far from the centers of power, to avoid being identified as a threat by Quietus. [1] Even without political power, he possessed still an important fortune, even enlarged by Trajan's legacy.
Hence, Hadrian became a major sponsor of the cultural sector. He cultivated a Greek lifestyle, indulging in euergetism, Greek love and philosophy. Hadrian's doctrine was theoretical, often idealist, inspired by Platonism and had nothing of especially scientific. Nertheless, Hadrian thereupon played a major role in scientific progress of the Mediterranean world.
Namely, on the other side of Eurasia, rumor had it that Qansleu [2] had suffered a large defeat against the legendary Dadzin [3] – and it was not long until Qan Tegs [4], Emperor of the Seres (Chinese), sent an embassy to Rome to secure the cooperation of the new dominant power in Mesopotamia. The dozen of Chinese officials took the more secure maritime route, not threatened by nomadic and Kushan assaults.
The news of the war taking one year to arrive in China, the legation's journey through the Indian Ocean lasting another year, the delegation arrived in Rome on schedule for Quietus' triumphal parade. Even if the distance between the twoempires made any sensible political collaboration impossible, the Chinese envoys were deeply impressed my Roman economic and military power.
Even more impressed by the Chinese was Hadrian, who welcomed the delegation in the city of Charax. Their courtesy heavily influenced the sensitive hellenophile, as did the fragments of Chinese philosophy he encountered in the few days the embassy stayed in southern Mesopotamia.
In Charax Hyspaosinou, Chinese and Indian philosophers, partly real thinkers, partly mystics, were funded by the curious Hadrian who embraced the spread of oriental wisdom as his life task. The Macedonian Wars had put Rome in touch with Greek culture, the Parthian campaign had done the same with the Asian culture.
[1] In OTL, Hadrian had Quietus and other possibly candidates to the throne executed.
[2] Old Chinese pronunciation of Anx i(ancient Chinese name of Persia).
[3] Old Chinese pronunciation of Daquin (ancient Chinese name of Rome).
[4] Old Chinese pronunciation of An Di (posthumous name of the emperor An of Han).
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Confucianism would probably make some waves amongst Roman society, particularly its emphasis on filial piety and loyalty. Also any chance that the Chinese philosophical and military treatises would be translated to Latin and Greek to be consumed for Roman audiences?
I know this is a Roman focused timeline, but will aspects of Greco-Roman culture make any waves in Han China?
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Chinese performers using shadow puppetry to perform Sinicized renditions of the Illiad, Odyssey and Aeneid, among other Greco-Roman plays?
Yes, you got it, Cuauhtemoc. There is some literature the Chinese may study, but I think that Rome has more to learn from China than China can learn from Rome.
I think the existence of another great powerful empire at the west might change the conception about themselves that the Chinese have about being the centre of the world.
The interesting thing is that the Chinese knew the Roman Empire and called it "Daquin"/Great China in OTL.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Just caught up on this timeline, looks very interesting, certainly will be following it. Mesene will need tax revenues so Rome can receive tribute from them and Mesene can pay some of the costs for its defense. However Rome may think of demanding as part of a treaty that they have the right for several times a year of imperial trade conveys which pay no tariff fee's the money going straight to the Emperor.
Well, I don't think that Roman traders pay tariffs at all.
Hope you enjoy the course of events.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Your choice of course about tariffs, but I do not see who else would be transiting that area than Romans. If they are not paying tariffs who is?
Greeks, some Arabs, inhabitants of Mesene, Indians, some Chinese, Persians ...
Especially in the field of metallurgy. The oldest extant blast furnaces had been built during the Han Dynasty of China in the 1st century CE. However, cast iron farm tools and weapons were widespread in China as early as the 5th century BCE, while 3rd century BCE iron smelters employed an average workforce of over two hundred men.
These early furnaces had clay walls and used phosphorus-containing minerals as a flux. The effectiveness of the Chinese blast furnace was enhanced during this period by the engineer Du Shi (about 31 CE), who applied the power of waterwheels to piston-bellows in forging cast iron.
Very interesting. I already made a list of Chinese inventions the Romans can adopt. Could you give me a link dealing with metallurgy?
Caput Sextus: A New Philosophy
With the Persian Fleet protecting travelers between the East and the West, Roman commerce became the link connecting both worlds. The merchants were followed by the philosophers, and the philosophers brought books with them.
Hadrian, using is own money, built a major library in Charax. The staff of the library bought the books carried to Charax by foreigners, had them translated by its translators and copied by professional scribes. Next to the library was the Museion of Charax, established on the model of the Museion of Alexandria, where the authors of the library's books had the chance to explain their teaching or to dispute with other gurus about major and minor questions of life.
The first prophets arriving in Charax were Buddhist monks, coming by sea from western India to preach their religion of austerity and salvation. They took a controversy with them, which had arisen between Buddhists of the Kushan Empire, following the Great Vehicle, and the Buddhists of Sri Lanka, adepts of the School of the elders.
Of the two schools, especially the Great Vehicle gained supporters in the Roman world, since the other doctrine forbid to translate Buddhist texts into foreign languages. Buddhism spread especially in the lower classes, because it recognized that life is linked to suffering, a wisdom known to the slaves and serfs of the Roman Empire. With its idea of reincarnation and an immortal soul, it appealed also to some platonic philosophers, and within three centuries, Buddhism became the paramount religion in the Roman Empire, overlaying but never superseding ancient forms of polytheism and henotheism.
Buddhism itself was supported by the Roman authorities, because Buddhist monks were committed into charity. Buddhist monasteries alleviated the sufferings of the poorest citizens, and the upper classes of society recognized their potential to ease social tensions. In return, Roman Emperors donated money for Buddhist monasteries and temples within the Empire, like in Rome, and appointed priests tasked to take part in Buddhist rites.
Another sect of some influence was the Jewish denomination worshiping a certain Jewish prophet called Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. The believers called themselves Christians and thought that Jesus died on the cross to redeem humanity. With their apocalyptic approach, they gained quite a few supporters among the common people, but many of them never really differentiated Christianity from Buddhism or usual polytheism, and the Christian faith soon became one of the most influential Buddhist sects. The usual interpretation used by Christians was that Jesus was a special Buddha, a most awakened one.
However, the Roman upper classes and philosophers were more attracted by another form of Asian wisdom. Hellenistic and Roman philosophy lacked in political theory adapted to the new political realities of monarchy and Principate – indeed, Aristotle's politics and Cicero's De re publica had been written before the downfall of the democracies and republics of the Mediterranean, and since then, nobody had attempted to compose a book about the common wealth.
This intellectual gap was filled by two Chinese ideologies, themselves developed centuries ago, when Rome was nothing more than a little Italian city and China weak and disunited. The first one was Legalism, developed by Stang Ang [1], chief adviser of the Duke of Quin: Legalism advocated for the strengthening of the state, achieved through consequent modernization, meritocratic administration and draconian punishments.
The second one, strongly opposed to Legalism, was Confucianism – the father of Confucianism, the Chinese philosopher Khong Tse [2], called for the respect of rites and traditions and for rule by virtue and example, and not by terror and fear. Instead of acting with the help of a centralized government, rulers should do as little as possible and thus enable the individuals to act wisely. However, as Legalism, Confucius fought against the feudal structures of Chinese society, since he advocated a system in which the most educated ones lead the society.
What Romans liked at Confucianism was the legitimation of Roman social structure: Confucianism emphasized the duties of senior personalities (rulers, elders, parents), but also the respect and loyalty of junior persons (subjects, younger people, children) for superior persons. Confucian philosophy helped to explain the relation between patron and client, and, in extension, emperor and subject.
Using Confucianism, the Romans could explain why their common wealth (res publica) needed an emperor: Confucius thought that the masses lacked the intellect to make decisions for themselves, and therefore needed a ruler, like children need a father. Nevertheless, an emperor governing against the universal order and ruling by cruel means could rightfully be overthrown by his subjects, as the Confucian philosopher Merangs Tse [3] pointed out.
But before the Roman state could adopt Chinese philosophy as state ideology, as it did in republican times with the Greek concept of mixed constitution, Confucian texts had to be translated into Greek and Latin and, most importantly, cleared of Chinese rites essential to Confucianism, but unintelligible to Romans. Moreover, Roman philosophers like Hadrian combined Legalism and Confucianism into one eclectic construct called Serican philosophy.
The adepts of Serican philosophy were, like Plato, convinced that the most advantageous government was the monarchical rule of the bests. This concept of rule by the most instructed would spread among influential members of Roman society and have some political consequences.
[1] Old Chinese pronunciation of Shang Yang
[2] Old Chinese pronunciation of Kongzi
[3] Old Chinese pronunciation of Mengzi
Next update in two weeks.
With the Persian Fleet protecting travelers between the East and the West, Roman commerce became the link connecting both worlds. The merchants were followed by the philosophers, and the philosophers brought books with them.
Hadrian, using is own money, built a major library in Charax. The staff of the library bought the books carried to Charax by foreigners, had them translated by its translators and copied by professional scribes. Next to the library was the Museion of Charax, established on the model of the Museion of Alexandria, where the authors of the library's books had the chance to explain their teaching or to dispute with other gurus about major and minor questions of life.
The first prophets arriving in Charax were Buddhist monks, coming by sea from western India to preach their religion of austerity and salvation. They took a controversy with them, which had arisen between Buddhists of the Kushan Empire, following the Great Vehicle, and the Buddhists of Sri Lanka, adepts of the School of the elders.
Of the two schools, especially the Great Vehicle gained supporters in the Roman world, since the other doctrine forbid to translate Buddhist texts into foreign languages. Buddhism spread especially in the lower classes, because it recognized that life is linked to suffering, a wisdom known to the slaves and serfs of the Roman Empire. With its idea of reincarnation and an immortal soul, it appealed also to some platonic philosophers, and within three centuries, Buddhism became the paramount religion in the Roman Empire, overlaying but never superseding ancient forms of polytheism and henotheism.
Buddhism itself was supported by the Roman authorities, because Buddhist monks were committed into charity. Buddhist monasteries alleviated the sufferings of the poorest citizens, and the upper classes of society recognized their potential to ease social tensions. In return, Roman Emperors donated money for Buddhist monasteries and temples within the Empire, like in Rome, and appointed priests tasked to take part in Buddhist rites.
Another sect of some influence was the Jewish denomination worshiping a certain Jewish prophet called Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. The believers called themselves Christians and thought that Jesus died on the cross to redeem humanity. With their apocalyptic approach, they gained quite a few supporters among the common people, but many of them never really differentiated Christianity from Buddhism or usual polytheism, and the Christian faith soon became one of the most influential Buddhist sects. The usual interpretation used by Christians was that Jesus was a special Buddha, a most awakened one.
However, the Roman upper classes and philosophers were more attracted by another form of Asian wisdom. Hellenistic and Roman philosophy lacked in political theory adapted to the new political realities of monarchy and Principate – indeed, Aristotle's politics and Cicero's De re publica had been written before the downfall of the democracies and republics of the Mediterranean, and since then, nobody had attempted to compose a book about the common wealth.
This intellectual gap was filled by two Chinese ideologies, themselves developed centuries ago, when Rome was nothing more than a little Italian city and China weak and disunited. The first one was Legalism, developed by Stang Ang [1], chief adviser of the Duke of Quin: Legalism advocated for the strengthening of the state, achieved through consequent modernization, meritocratic administration and draconian punishments.
The second one, strongly opposed to Legalism, was Confucianism – the father of Confucianism, the Chinese philosopher Khong Tse [2], called for the respect of rites and traditions and for rule by virtue and example, and not by terror and fear. Instead of acting with the help of a centralized government, rulers should do as little as possible and thus enable the individuals to act wisely. However, as Legalism, Confucius fought against the feudal structures of Chinese society, since he advocated a system in which the most educated ones lead the society.
What Romans liked at Confucianism was the legitimation of Roman social structure: Confucianism emphasized the duties of senior personalities (rulers, elders, parents), but also the respect and loyalty of junior persons (subjects, younger people, children) for superior persons. Confucian philosophy helped to explain the relation between patron and client, and, in extension, emperor and subject.
Using Confucianism, the Romans could explain why their common wealth (res publica) needed an emperor: Confucius thought that the masses lacked the intellect to make decisions for themselves, and therefore needed a ruler, like children need a father. Nevertheless, an emperor governing against the universal order and ruling by cruel means could rightfully be overthrown by his subjects, as the Confucian philosopher Merangs Tse [3] pointed out.
But before the Roman state could adopt Chinese philosophy as state ideology, as it did in republican times with the Greek concept of mixed constitution, Confucian texts had to be translated into Greek and Latin and, most importantly, cleared of Chinese rites essential to Confucianism, but unintelligible to Romans. Moreover, Roman philosophers like Hadrian combined Legalism and Confucianism into one eclectic construct called Serican philosophy.
The adepts of Serican philosophy were, like Plato, convinced that the most advantageous government was the monarchical rule of the bests. This concept of rule by the most instructed would spread among influential members of Roman society and have some political consequences.
[1] Old Chinese pronunciation of Shang Yang
[2] Old Chinese pronunciation of Kongzi
[3] Old Chinese pronunciation of Mengzi
Buddha Christos
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Next update in two weeks.
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