Yes but the problem with having an Emperor that doesn't get into any wars other than paltry conflicts with some unimportant tribe that gets ended before Breakfast gets done cooking is that it denies any New Commanders and officers experience. ITTL there are still probably commanders alive that have fought against the Persians and against major tribes in Germania. If you want to go to war in similar conditions experience is invaluable, so unless this Emperor's reign is no longer than twelve years then many of these people with experience in the matters will retire and get old and you will inevitably have to get people who are totally out of their element in fighting Persia.
On eastern shores – A Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Alcsentre Calanice
- Start date
Yes but the problem with having an Emperor that doesn't get into any wars other than paltry conflicts with some unimportant tribe that gets ended before Breakfast gets done cooking is that it denies any New Commanders and officers experience. ITTL there are still probably commanders alive that have fought against the Persians and against major tribes in Germania. If you want to go to war in similar conditions experience is invaluable, so unless this Emperor's reign is no longer than twelve years then many of these people with experience in the matters will retire and get old and you will inevitably have to get people who are totally out of their element in fighting Persia.
bad plan. If you don't stay close to the Senate then bad things may happen.
Also, I may have been dumb and missed it, but what happened in Judea in 100s? Since Hadrian wasn't around was that handled differently or was it handled similar as OTL?
Has someone a good name for Roman part time soldiers? Never understood why the Byzantines named them Thema.
Korean style mandatory military service is better IMO. Will also enforce camaraderie, loyalty, discipline and romanisation among the population. Not to mention that a huge source of body will always be available to work on projects across the Empire while simultaneously teaching skills/crafts to said conscripts to be utilized released from duty, enriching the economy and reducing poverty.
Thema is thought to come from the Greek thesis ("placement"). So perhaps Tenens be okay? The Tenens system.
Judea, well, read the chapters about Quintus' and Lollius' reigns. During Quintus' reign, Judea rebelled, but this revolt was quickly put down by Lollius.
Tenens means "holding", for example, "somebody is holding". Sounds quite strange, but the word thema itself doesn't make sense, so maybe your idea isn't that bad
But maybe there are other propositions? =====
Caput Undetricesimus: Axiopolis, March 14, 1023 AUC
The long awaited war began in 1022 AUC [1], when a large Gothic force (in fact an alliance consisting of various Germanic, Celtic and Sarmatian tribes) raided Tomi and Odessus. Then, they attacked Byzantion, where the ambitious plans for comprehensive defense works hadn't yet been executed. The newly restored city was sacked, just like different outskirts of the town. Subsequently, the Gothic fleet sailed through the Propontis and entered the Aegean Sea, raiding Alexandreia Troas, Pergamon and Ephesos, where they burned down the Temple of Artemis.
Near Delos, the now experienced Gothic seamen defeated a hastily mustered Roman fleet and virtually annihilated Roman presence in the Black Sea. Some smaller Gothic detachments then looted Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus and even tried to sail to Egypt. Meanwhile, the bulk of the Gothic army landed near Thessalonike and, to the great surprise of the Romans, build several siege engines.
A smaller contingent simultaneously marched southwards and sacked southern Greece, including Athenai, Korinthos, Argos and finally the Peloponnese – there, they crushed a Spartan army lead by the ephors of the city. The defeat of the sons of Lakedaimon was a symbol for the Hellenic decadence and the death of classical culture, for the end of the old times.
The new times however were represented by the Roman Legalist administration, heavily centralized and bad a reacting quickly to new threats. But eventually, the Roman government reacted to the Gothic invasion. Several cities plundered and Thessalonike, the capital of Macedonia, besieged, was too much, even for the reluctant Alexander and his caballing entourage. It was clear who was to be sent to Greece, and Lucius was given the needed full powers to fight the Germans.
Lucius left Italy in November 1022 AUC [2] with 20,000 men of the Central Army, including his now famous Numidian cavalry. But instead of directly marching against Cannabaudes' troops, he boarded the ships in the port of Brundisium, crossed the Adriatic Sea and landed at Narona. From there, he marched to Singidium where he merged the Mosesian legions with his troops, which then counted 40,000 men. This was enough to throw the Goths into panic, who tried to march back to their Sarmatian homeland.
However, slowed down by the large Greek booty, the Gothic army couldn't get away from the Roman mobile avant-garde. Both armies engaged in battle at Axiopolis on March 14, 1023 AUC [3] – the Gothic mounted archers tried to flank the Roman troops, but were routed by the African horsemen. The destruction of the Gothic wing allowed for an attack on the Germanic centre, and the defeat of the Goths was perfect.
Forty thousand Gothic warriors were either dead, brought into slavery or on the run. The Gothic siege of Thessalonike was levied, and the remaining enemies drove to the sea. The enormous hership reconquered by the Roman troops was distributed among the Greek cities, and additional sums provided to help them recover from the Gothic plundering and build strong walls.
Again, Byzantion was specially bedight, since Lucius considered the city as the gate to the Mediterranean Sea and ordered to reconstruct the city as a naval base for the Fleet of Ravenna, which was subsequently relocated to the east; since then, the Empire was organized into two nautical theaters: The district of the Fleet of Misenum covered the Mediterranean west of Sicily, whereas the Fleet of Byzantium's area of responsibility included the eastern part of the Mediterranean.
Furthermore, due to its strategic positions close to the vital Danubian border, the city was regarded as particularly endangered, and Lucius ordered to build fortifications even more ambitious than the ones previously planned. Also, the new walls were built several miles west of Byzantion's old walls, because Lucius allowed for a future growth of the conveniently situated city.
Since the old Roman headquarter at Tomi had been destroyed, Lucius decided to establish an effective political and military administration in Byzantion. On the seven hills of the city, a Grand Palace was erected, symbol of Lucius' power, as well as a Hippodrome for his political appearances, and formidable public baths. Last but not least, large barracks were constructed in and outside the city, to make it possible to place troops therein.
Several provisions illustrated Byzantion's special position within the Empire: For the administration of Byzantion, an own proconsul was appointed, and a city council (the Synkletos) established – its members were hand-picked by Lucius. The Synkletos received an impressive curia within the great basilica (magna aula), and it senators (synkletikoi) gradually the same privileges as the senators of Rome.
In fact, instead of merely restoring the town, Lucius founded an all new city on the site of the formerly independent city state of Byzantion. Initially, Lucius considered to name the city Luciopolis after himself, but thought it to be more pious to choose his recently deceased father's name. Byzantion was finally renamed Alexandria Bospori or Alexandreia tou Bosporou (Alexandria of the Bosporus).
Thus, the metropolis of the star and crescent became an outstanding and privileged town of the Empire, even if its inhabitants continued to call it Byzantion, and even though Rome was still seen as the first city of the Empire.
But all further regulations would have to wait until the offensive was brought into Gothic land and Gothia one and for all rendered harmless. A peace treaty was needed, but a real one, and not a ceasefire merely delaying the next raids.
[1] 269 CE
[2] 269 CE
[3] 270 CE
The main operations of the Great Gothic War
treaties never tend to work all that well with Barbarians, sign one with one Tribal King/Chief then he gets overthrown after the men get tired of not being able to loot and pillage like they used to and then a new leader rises up and denies the treaty and leads a raiding force into Roman territory.
Rome was willing to Wipe Carthage off the map for lesser things, if Lucius decides to use Numidian Auxiliaries more often on the plains of Scythia then public opinion of most of the Aegean area and probably a good bit of area outside of that will call for revenge. Even if public opinion didn't matter all that much at the time the population of the new Alexandria (yeees because the ancient world needs yet another Alexandria, because Alexander didn't make enough already.) will call for at least some manner of action as well as the Senate and Patrician families I would expect.
Rome always needs someone to steal booty from and making those Cimmerians an example to the three little client states along the Caucasian mountains to not turn their back on Rome.
And having a surge of wealth right when you become Emperor will make everyone like you of course.
Even if he is a pacifist it would be cool to see him slowly be worn down by all these terrible things before he goes full Julius Ceaser (the part of him willing to enact Genocide and kill his own troops when they stopped doing what he told them to do)
Were there even Celts in that area? I knew there were some a couple Hundred years before the mass Germanic migration from the Jutland area but around then?
Rome was willing to Wipe Carthage off the map for lesser things, if Lucius decides to use Numidian Auxiliaries more often on the plains of Scythia then public opinion of most of the Aegean area and probably a good bit of area outside of that will call for revenge. Even if public opinion didn't matter all that much at the time the population of the new Alexandria (yeees because the ancient world needs yet another Alexandria, because Alexander didn't make enough already.) will call for at least some manner of action as well as the Senate and Patrician families I would expect.
Rome always needs someone to steal booty from and making those Cimmerians an example to the three little client states along the Caucasian mountains to not turn their back on Rome.
And having a surge of wealth right when you become Emperor will make everyone like you of course.
Even if he is a pacifist it would be cool to see him slowly be worn down by all these terrible things before he goes full Julius Ceaser (the part of him willing to enact Genocide and kill his own troops when they stopped doing what he told them to do)
Were there even Celts in that area? I knew there were some a couple Hundred years before the mass Germanic migration from the Jutland area but around then?
I don't think there ever were Celtic tribes that far east. Mind, I'm not counting Galatia, which was significant in being far outside of what was widely recognized as Celtic territories. There were Celtic tribes as far east as Pannonia, as well as territories of modern-day Austria and Bohemia (the name itself is significant, it was the homeland of the Boii tribe, the name stuck even if the Boii wound up largely assimilating into the neighbouring Germanic tribes). Well, larger concentrations of them, at least.
Getic/Dacian tribes would be a better choice, even if their core territories might have been conquered by the Romans. There might have been some Celtic settler-colonies established during the Diadochi period (Celtic/Galatian mercenaries were a very popular choice for the Diadochi), but those would've been either minor, irrelevant or assimilated after centuries spent integrated into the power structures of foreign powers - though a Mameluke-type state of a Celtic warrior elite ruling over one of the Diadochi nations (either the Ptolemaic or Seleucid Empires) would make for an interesting TL come to think of it. Something to think on.
Yeah,Luciopolis sounds better.Or alternatively,call it Maharbalpolis since this guy likes to call himself Maharbal.
We need a Crisis of the Third (maybe fourth?) century disaster in order to force the Romans to get their act together. Large centralized defenses like this is what allow the US Air Force to bombard Japan and then retreat before the people who could authorize defense had even heard about it.
I quickly looked it up on wiki, and yes, there were the Bastarnae who were possibly of Celtic culture, or at least heavily influenced by Celtic culture.
That's what happened the last time with the Goths, when good old Kniwa was overthrown by the Gothic noblemen because he signed a peace with Rome
But I think Lucius is too clever to do that. He will make a peace that ensures that Gothia will not be able to wage another war against the Roman Empire.But wait, the campaign against Gothia will come. The population of Alexandria of the Bosporus (and as I wrote everyone continue to call it Byzantion) will be pleased to see how the Gothic threat will be destroyed by Roman armies.
I think that the Bosporan Kingdom, Colchis, Iberia and Albania will be very thankful that Rome finally took action against the Goths (and Alans).
May I quote myself?
So you see, he had a good reason to name it after his old father, emperor Alexander. Also, by founding an Alexandria (and it doesn't matter how many Alexandrias there already are), he imitates Alexander the Great and becomes himself a great conqueror, something that was always popular with Roman general.
There will be a Maharbalopolis, I promise.
I agree with this part. What you said about the US and Japan... well I was never interested in this part of WWII
Not sure what you mean by agreeing a Crisis of the Third century is a good thing.I quickly looked it up on wiki, and yes, there were the Bastarnae who were possibly of Celtic culture, or at least heavily influenced by Celtic culture.
That's what happened the last time with the Goths, when good old Kniwa was overthrown by the Gothic noblemen because he signed a peace with Rome
But wait, the campaign against Gothia will come. The population of Alexandria of the Bosporus (and as I wrote everyone continue to call it Byzantion) will be pleased to see how the Gothic threat will be destroyed by Roman armies.
I think that the Bosporan Kingdom, Colchis, Iberia and Albania will be very thankful that Rome finally took action against the Goths (and Alans).
May I quote myself?
So you see, he had a good reason to name it after his old father, emperor Alexander. Also, by founding an Alexandria (and it doesn't matter how many Alexandrias there already are), he imitates Alexander the Great and becomes himself a great conqueror, something that was always popular with Roman general.
There will be a Maharbalopolis, I promise.
I agree with this part. What you said about the US and Japan... well I was never interested in this part of WWII
Well, I think that Agricola, you and me agree that Rome will see another civil war and face serious internal as well as external problems if nothing changes (even if already many things changed compared to OTL). And maybe a little crisis will help the Romans to recognize this.
Well, that sounds good. But other proposals are welcome as well.
You can go with limitanei if you want.Limitanei started as fully professional soldiers,but by the time of Justinian,their pay was cancelled.It's worthwhile to note that even before that,most limitanei had to farm their own food to supplement their pay.So while the Limitanei started out as professional soldiers,they gradually devolved/evolved into the sort of part-time soldiers that theme troops were.This gradual devolution/evolution of provincial forces could be the natural progression you are looking for.
Due to my mercifulness, there are two updates today
=====
Caput Tricesimus: Securing Power
After his great victory against the Gothic invasion army, Lucius was now able to start the first Roman offensive against Gothia itself and deal a deathblow to the much too strong Gothic Kingdom. However, matters of public importance prevented this. The day after the battle of Axiopolis, Lucius received news from Italy: The emperor Alexander had just died at the age of 62, and Lucius was now emperor according to his father's last will.
Actually, Lucius' plan was to reign from Byzantion with the help of the imperial administration, to stay close to the vital eastern and northern border. But the time wasn't ripe for stripping the old capital Rome of its political significance, and on the Palatine Hill, the regent Theoclia was still pulling the strings. The fact that a woman was governing the empire convinced Lucius to return to Rome to settle the political situation.
Before leaving the eastern headquarter, he appointed his near friend and deputy commander, Decius, General of the Danubian border. Decius' family came from the provinces on the Danube; his grandfather was a friend of Marcus Lollius' and Publius Verus', and his father was an influential member of Septimius Severus' court.
Born in 954 AUC [1], he served as consul in 985 AUC [2] and became one of the most important men of Rome. As a gifted general, he fought off the Gothic invasion of 1004 AUC [3]. Aged 69, he had no further political ambitions and could be trusted as commander in the east. His sons, Herennius Etruscus and Hostilian however, would benefit from their father’s influence and position and play a major role in imperial politics.
Arrived in Rome, Lucius took over the government from his dead father. After the obligatory days of mourning, he ordered Theoclia to be arrested. Theoclia, Alexander's sister, had used her brother's weakness to rule at his place. In her fight with her rival, Alexander's wife Sallustia Orbiana, she allegedly used poison and other illegal means and was accused of different murders by high-ranking senators.
Lucius would have liked to leave it at that and drop the case against his aunt to prevent any political unrest. But since Theoclia didn't stop to arrogate supreme power, she had to be put out of the way – the case was tried by the Senate, which was presided over by Trebonianus Gallus, a former suffect consul and one of the most prominent enemies of Theoclia's.
The verdict was certain ab initio, and the judgment passed according to Lucius' orders. To respect the dignity of the imperial dignity, the sentence was carried out quietly and painlessly. Theoclia was buried without any extravagance, and her accomplices sent into exile. The support of the people for the new emperor was gained by the dissolution of Theoclia's luxurious household.
Thereupon, Theoclia's supporters were discharged and replaced by her enemies. Lucius enforced a consequently Legalist legislation to fund his building programs and campaigns. Hence, his reign saw the culminating point of Roman Legalism: After Lucius, not one Rome Emperor had the power and the will to reduce the citizens' personal liberty as strongly as under Lucius.
After having given these orders, Lucius left Rome to finally accomplish his victory against the Goths. But the administration had to be supervised during the emperor's absence, and a highest office was created to lead the empire's officials in the west. This officeholder was named Magister officiorum, Master of the offices, and commanded to both military and civilian administration of the western part of the empire.
Lucius was aware of the fact that such an office would create the most awful usurpers, especially because of the unification of total military and civil power in one person. But Lucius knew that he couldn't coordinate the work of the Generals and Governors from Persia or Gothia, and that he needed a powerful representative in the west. Also, everyone was well aware of the fact than a usurpation against such a popular emperor and gifted general as Lucius could only end in a disaster.
Finally, the office was confided to Trebonianus Gallus, born in 959 AUC [4] – of Etruscan ancestry, he originated from Perusia, known as Persna in Etruscan. He was a member of an influential senatorial family and went through the Cursus honorum. Being both an enemy of Theoclia's and a personal friend of Decius', he used his contacts to strengthen his political power, and to provide his son Volusianus with a decent position.
[1] 201 CE
[2] 232 CE
[3] 251 CE
[4] 206 CE
=====
Caput Tricesimus: Securing Power
After his great victory against the Gothic invasion army, Lucius was now able to start the first Roman offensive against Gothia itself and deal a deathblow to the much too strong Gothic Kingdom. However, matters of public importance prevented this. The day after the battle of Axiopolis, Lucius received news from Italy: The emperor Alexander had just died at the age of 62, and Lucius was now emperor according to his father's last will.
Actually, Lucius' plan was to reign from Byzantion with the help of the imperial administration, to stay close to the vital eastern and northern border. But the time wasn't ripe for stripping the old capital Rome of its political significance, and on the Palatine Hill, the regent Theoclia was still pulling the strings. The fact that a woman was governing the empire convinced Lucius to return to Rome to settle the political situation.
Before leaving the eastern headquarter, he appointed his near friend and deputy commander, Decius, General of the Danubian border. Decius' family came from the provinces on the Danube; his grandfather was a friend of Marcus Lollius' and Publius Verus', and his father was an influential member of Septimius Severus' court.
Born in 954 AUC [1], he served as consul in 985 AUC [2] and became one of the most important men of Rome. As a gifted general, he fought off the Gothic invasion of 1004 AUC [3]. Aged 69, he had no further political ambitions and could be trusted as commander in the east. His sons, Herennius Etruscus and Hostilian however, would benefit from their father’s influence and position and play a major role in imperial politics.
Arrived in Rome, Lucius took over the government from his dead father. After the obligatory days of mourning, he ordered Theoclia to be arrested. Theoclia, Alexander's sister, had used her brother's weakness to rule at his place. In her fight with her rival, Alexander's wife Sallustia Orbiana, she allegedly used poison and other illegal means and was accused of different murders by high-ranking senators.
Lucius would have liked to leave it at that and drop the case against his aunt to prevent any political unrest. But since Theoclia didn't stop to arrogate supreme power, she had to be put out of the way – the case was tried by the Senate, which was presided over by Trebonianus Gallus, a former suffect consul and one of the most prominent enemies of Theoclia's.
The verdict was certain ab initio, and the judgment passed according to Lucius' orders. To respect the dignity of the imperial dignity, the sentence was carried out quietly and painlessly. Theoclia was buried without any extravagance, and her accomplices sent into exile. The support of the people for the new emperor was gained by the dissolution of Theoclia's luxurious household.
Thereupon, Theoclia's supporters were discharged and replaced by her enemies. Lucius enforced a consequently Legalist legislation to fund his building programs and campaigns. Hence, his reign saw the culminating point of Roman Legalism: After Lucius, not one Rome Emperor had the power and the will to reduce the citizens' personal liberty as strongly as under Lucius.
After having given these orders, Lucius left Rome to finally accomplish his victory against the Goths. But the administration had to be supervised during the emperor's absence, and a highest office was created to lead the empire's officials in the west. This officeholder was named Magister officiorum, Master of the offices, and commanded to both military and civilian administration of the western part of the empire.
Lucius was aware of the fact that such an office would create the most awful usurpers, especially because of the unification of total military and civil power in one person. But Lucius knew that he couldn't coordinate the work of the Generals and Governors from Persia or Gothia, and that he needed a powerful representative in the west. Also, everyone was well aware of the fact than a usurpation against such a popular emperor and gifted general as Lucius could only end in a disaster.
Finally, the office was confided to Trebonianus Gallus, born in 959 AUC [4] – of Etruscan ancestry, he originated from Perusia, known as Persna in Etruscan. He was a member of an influential senatorial family and went through the Cursus honorum. Being both an enemy of Theoclia's and a personal friend of Decius', he used his contacts to strengthen his political power, and to provide his son Volusianus with a decent position.
[1] 201 CE
[2] 232 CE
[3] 251 CE
[4] 206 CE
Roman Empire at Alexander's death