Oliver Cromwell goes to New England?

[herkles]

So I was listening to the Revolutions podcast and Mike Duncan mentioned that Cromwell almost went aboard the Mayflower to New England.

So I am curious what happens if he did decide to pack up things and go to the new world. How does this affect the civil wars in England? Assuming the Parliamentarians still win the civil war whom takes over the country instead? What would Cromwell be doing in New England? How would Plymouth Colony develop under his leadership? Any other developments that would happen if that happened?

 

[Marc]

Well, being too liberal, he ends up moving to the Providence Plantations where he has a long and happy and quite peaceful life.

 

[The Professor]

Someone wrote an interesting TL on this showing the changes in the American colonies and the Wars of the 3 Kingdoms. EdT I think. Will have to look.

 

[Corjomc]

Leads colonial forces to victory in Pequot War then goes on to found Cromwell, RI.

 

[herkles]

Well, being too liberal, he ends up moving to the Providence Plantations where he has a long and happy and quite peaceful life.

Cromwell would be considered Liberal?

Someone wrote an interesting TL on this showing the changes in the American colonies and the Wars of the 3 Kingdoms. EdT I think. Will have to look.

That would be interesting to read.

Leads colonial forces to victory in Pequot War then goes on to found Cromwell, RI.

Anything else he could do in the colonies?

Of course the other part of this equation is how does effect things back in Britain? How does the civil war and the period of the commonwealth go? Without Cromwell who would even lead the Commonwealth? Fairfax, Harrison?

 

[Marc]

By Puritan standards, and by a number of others, Cromwell was quite liberal.
Saving some time, to quote one of the Cromwell websites:
Cromwell’s life and actions had a radical edge springing from his strong religious faith. A conversion experience some time before the civil war, strengthened by his belief that during the war he and his troops had been chosen by God to perform His will, gave a religious tinge to many of his political policies as Lord Protector in the 1650s. Cromwell sought ‘Godly reformation’, a broad programme involving reform of the most inhumane elements of the legal, judicial and social systems and clamped down on drunkenness, immorality and other sinful activities. He also believed passionately in what he called ‘liberty of conscience’, that is freedom for a range of Protestant groups and faiths to practice their beliefs undisturbed and without disturbing others.

 

[Tyrann Philip II]

By Puritan standards, and by a number of others, Cromwell was quite liberal.
Saving some time, to quote one of the Cromwell websites:
Cromwell’s life and actions had a radical edge springing from his strong religious faith. A conversion experience some time before the civil war, strengthened by his belief that during the war he and his troops had been chosen by God to perform His will, gave a religious tinge to many of his political policies as Lord Protector in the 1650s. Cromwell sought ‘Godly reformation’, a broad programme involving reform of the most inhumane elements of the legal, judicial and social systems and clamped down on drunkenness, immorality and other sinful activities. He also believed passionately in what he called ‘liberty of conscience’, that is freedom for a range of Protestant groups and faiths to practice their beliefs undisturbed and without disturbing others.

Guess that liberty of conscience also translates to "feel free to butcher all Catholics while you're at it"

 

[Marc]

Guess that liberty of conscience also translates to "feel free to butcher all Catholics while you're at it"

Of course, tolerance extends only so far, particularly during that era. Protestants butcher Catholics; Catholics slaughter Protestants; and both groups murder and rape Jews.
However, in the context of the original post and this thread, Cromwell, by the standards of his peers and would be peers in New England would be considered far too liberal in his views.

 

[Kerney]

Would he, possibly as a war leader, go after those non Christian Indians who revolted during King Phillips' war earlier?

 

[edgeworthy]

Of course, tolerance extends only so far, particularly during that era. Protestants butcher Catholics; Catholics slaughter Protestants; and both groups murder and rape Jews.
However, in the context of the original post and this thread, Cromwell, by the standards of his peers and would be peers in New England would be considered far too liberal in his views.

Cromwell didn't seem to have anything against the Jews, OTL, encouraging them to return to England officially. 350 years after they had been expelled.

 

[VVD0D95]

Cromwell would be considered Liberal?


That would be interesting to read.


Anything else he could do in the colonies?

Of course the other part of this equation is how does effect things back in Britain? How does the civil war and the period of the commonwealth go? Without Cromwell who would even lead the Commonwealth? Fairfax, Harrison?

I don’t think there would be a commonwealth with no Cromwell, nor do I think the war of the three kingdoms or the civil war would happen in a similar manner due to butterflies

 

[Scott Washburn]

Oddly enough an ancestor of mine, being a royalist, was forced to flee FROM Cromwell to New England after the ECW

 

[Triune Kingdom]

"The Bloody Man" by EdT. Rather interesting TL, well worth the read.

 

[Mark E.]

Cromwell would have been 21 when the Mayflower left in 1620. Would he have had any incentive to return to England later?

 

[Marc]

Cromwell didn't seem to have anything against the Jews, OTL, encouraging them to return to England officially. 350 years after they had been expelled.

Yes, my comment was simply directed towards the fact that killing based on faith was widespread, and Jews were targeted by just about everyone.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Guess that liberty of conscience also translates to "feel free to butcher all Catholics while you're at it"

Actually the position of Catholics in the Protectorate was, if anything, slightly better than it had been under the previous Stuart monarchs.

 

[Kerney]

Actually the position of Catholics in the Protectorate was, if anything, slightly better than it had been under the previous Stuart monarchs.

Unless you were Irish. I read years ago that the Protectorate considered actual genocide, but decided that hunting and killing all the Irish would cost too much money.

 

[Clandango]

Unless you were Irish. I read years ago that the Protectorate considered actual genocide, but decided that hunting and killing all the Irish would cost too much money.

We have to take these things with a grain of salt. I once read somewhere that John Brown wanted a slave uprising to kill all whites in the South besides the Quakers. I expect it probably had a fair bit of pro-slavery propaganda back from that time period. Anyways, looking it up it seems a lot of it was about money. Had to pay people with something, so taking land from the Irish worked. Pretty standard policy for a lot of countries, I am thinking, though the English did it on an area where there wasn’t much room to back away from.

 

[Kerney]

We have to take these things with a grain of salt. I once read somewhere that John Brown wanted a slave uprising to kill all whites in the South besides the Quakers. I expect it probably had a fair bit of pro-slavery propaganda back from that time period. Anyways, looking it up it seems a lot of it was about money. Had to pay people with something, so taking land from the Irish worked. Pretty standard policy for a lot of countries, I am thinking, though the English did it on an area where there wasn’t much room to back away from.

This source was, not like that. It was in a larger context of how our world came to be, covering things like the Prussian education system, how oil became our fuel of choice, and agriculture all the way back to Sumerian times etc.

The text didn't have an axe to grind towards Cromwell in particular, unlike say a stereotypical text on the American Civil War printed in 1900 Alabama. It was looking at when Genocide was first contemplated and then went up to WW2.

And the book was fascinating enough that I noted Cromwell but went on.

I believe it was "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartman, but I can't be 100% sure. I was reading a lot of books at the time which weren't straight history, but about putting past practices in the context of the modern world.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Unless you were Irish. I read years ago that the Protectorate considered actual genocide, but decided that hunting and killing all the Irish would cost too much money.

Cromwell's actions in Ireland were in line with the laws of war at the time, and there's no evidence of him conducting any campaign of religious cleansing against the locals. I've never heard of him considering actual genocide, so I'm a bit sceptical as to the accuracy of your source; even if it's true, though, I expect that Cromwell would have been more motivated by racial than by religious bigotry, given that he didn't treat English Catholics with unusual harshness.