Oh no!! More Aztecs!!!

Decades ago I was reading either a text book or a library book about the conquest of the Aztecs. That is where I first ran into allohistory speculation. Thusly, the book said if even if Cortez and his army had been wiped out word would have still gotten back to Spain about the Aztec riches as well as the fate of Cortes and his men. Greedy adventurous Spanish men would in their thousands be more impressed by the rewards rather the risks and thus Aztec doom would not be not postponed for long.
Is the book right? I think so.
 
In a word, yes, the book is right. Aztec civilization was doomed from the moment Columbus set foot in Lisbon on his way back to Spain. At that point, it was obvious that he's found something, and sooner or later another expedition would be sent no matter the risk.
 
In a word, yes, the book is right. Aztec civilization was doomed from the moment Columbus set foot in Lisbon on his way back to Spain. At that point, it was obvious that he's found something, and sooner or later another expedition would be sent no matter the risk.

At the same time, it would be possible for Spain and Europe in general to respect the sovereignty of these far off Empires. The monarchs, back in Europe, originally had this attitude - conquering a far of nation was seen as rather impractical, and then they had to answer the question of what to do with all your new non-christian subjects.

The problem was the "greedy adventurous Spanish men would in their thousands be more impressed by the rewards rather the risks and thus Aztec doom would not be not postponed for long." Cortez and the conquistadors, more often than not, acted on their own and then handed conquered lands to Spain in hopes for a reward (more often then not the reward wasn't quite what they expected). Spain was then "forced" into acquiring the territories - not that the later monarchs didn't have a change in attitude once silver and other practical riches were discovered in this land.

It was also the relative ease - thanks mostly to diseases, local rivalries, and other outside issues - with which Cortez, and later Pizarro conquered these lands that then drove thousands of other "greedy adventurous Spanish men" into hoping to achieve similar conquest - some of the craziest of these men like Martin de Rada and Diego de Artieda even considered trying to conquer China. Obviously the circumstances there were quite different.

Outside these "greedy adventurous Spanish men" the fact that disease was killing the local residents by the lot and essentially leaving land empty free for the taking wasn't helping.

So in short yes, the book is right - but if the conquest is delayed. Say Cotez fails, and so does the following expedition, then the risks of adventure becomes more apparent than the reward and some of the less greedy and adventurous are put off. In this case then terms of conquest and subjugation might be quite differently than OTL. You might end up with a local vassal of Spain. The Incas, who were father away from Spain and were also larger more united (even if they just came out of a bloody civil war) might have a better chance under these circumstances of surviving.
 
Yeah, it is hard to save the Pre-Columbian nations.
Not impossible though. Enough people die and eventually a lot of potential conquistadores are going to get discouraged. Especially when expedition after expedition goes into the jungles and comes back with nothing at all, if they come back at all. Won't stop people entirely, but it's not like more and more are going to be excited for the increasingly-apparent chance to die a miserable death from malaria or snakebite or poisoned arrow or something. Cortes's success provided a massive boost and inspiration. His death and abject failure will provide an example and grim warning.

EDIT: Ninja'd by a longer post, I'm too easily distracted in my old age it seems. Well said, though, jycee.
 
Especially, if the influx of gold and what not leads to less then fortunate fortunes for Spain and the HRE in Europe. Charles V was for example not all that crazy about gaining territory, just keeping what he had.
 
Especially, if the influx of gold and what not leads to less then fortunate fortunes for Spain and the HRE in Europe. Charles V was for example not all that crazy about gaining territory, just keeping what he had.

Not until the gained territory started to fill his royal coffers big time. But IIRC, this did not actually had much of an impact until the late twenties/early thirties, and the big riches came out after 1545, when the Potosi was first exploited.
Anyway, yes, Cortes failing might not save the Aztecs as such, but would have quite of an impact.
 
Well, I did do a TL where Cortes and crew are killed after La Noche. The Introduction of Plague and Revolting subjects spells doom for the majority of the Aztec Empire which splinters. Though the various states that emerge do what they can to gain the knowledge of the surviving Conquistadors and marry them off to local women. Spain gets embroiled in war in Europe and a worse Civil Revolt leads to the French stepping into the region and the Mexica and Tlaxcallans allying to fight off a Tarascan-Mixtec alliance. Also the Mesoamericans take a very...literal syncretic version of the Bible stories into their religion.

Tenochtitlan
"Madre de Dios...Madre de Dios....Oh Christ be with me..." Geronimo de Aguilar muttered to himself in his native tounge as he was lead up the steps of the great stepped pyramid of these...these Aztecs! The bearded fransiscan priest's bare feet were bleeding profusly, his shoes taken off at the foot of the pyramid. If it were not for the dozens of armed Aztec warriors and the crowd of Aztec nobles and commoners, Geronimo would have done his best to escape from the situation. He had lived with the Maya peoples and learned their language, infact he had been questioned for the last few days constantly by warriors and officials over the nature of his religion-they even stole his bible!

In what he himself was calling "La Noche Triesta" Geronimo had attempted to flee with the rest of the expedition but he had been knocked out from behind, having woken up in a cell of other captives of the Aztecs, but not long afterward he had been singled out and seperated from the rest of the survivors! God be with them! He thought now that he would no doubt meet the defiled corpses of his fellow Spaindards at the top of this pyramid.

Though on entering the city a few weeks hence, Geronimo if he recalled correctly, this pyramid-altar to the pagan gods had been empty of any kind of structure on the top. He had been about to ask one of the guards pushing him up the stone stairs when he and the crowd seemed to reach the summit, he felt a hand grab his hair and fiercly jerk his head upward and what he saw threatened to send his mind into insanity.

Their wasn't much, no large structure housing a altar, enfact the stone altars where these savages normally did their grusome sacrifices was absent. Instead their were four crosses.

Four Crosses with people nailed to them with spikes of wood, crucified! Geronimo's eyes bulged in his skull as he looked on, the arrangement of the crosses were arranged with one cross on a small podium in the back and above the others slightly-a old native man his skin caked in a white substance looked on at Geronimo. Below and to the front of him was a Spanidard, a young conquistador who looked like he might be dead, and ontop of his head he wore a crown of thorns..... Biting his lips Geronimo looked to his left and right, on his left their was a old woman a bird on a cord wrapped around her neck and to the right was a younger woman who wore...who wore a shawl over her head like he had seen many times in paintings and statues of the Virgin Mary!!!!!

Geronimo felt sick as he fell to his knees, tears streaming down his face, and this was when he noticed arrayed around the bodies of these crucified people were bowels where their blood was slowly pooling into, and to the side sat a small cooking fire.....

"Oh God....Oh God....."

His words were interupted by the speaking of another Aztec who stood arms raised to the assmebled crowd below him "People of Mexica! The foreigners from the east are defeated! The might and blood of the people of Huitzilopochtli have triumphed over these men who would seek to steal our wealth and defile our people!" he stops as a booming shout of cheers erupt around him, the man who Geronimo now notices is clutching his Bible tightly to his breast, "As right of our conquest! We have this day stolen the gods of the people of the east! Their mighty strength will now serve us! In their honor and to win them over the people of Tenochtitlan shall every First Tecpatl and Seventh Cuetzpalin give a dedication of devourering of the sacred flesh of the Son and drinking of his blood. So that the power of their divinity will give the Mexica PROSPERITY and VICTORY!!"

Geronimo de Aguilar's weeping cries of blasphemy was lost in the cheers echoing throughout Tenochtitlan.....

aztec4_sacrifice.jpg
Rituals To The Pale Faced Gods

The adoption of the "Gods" of the Conquistadors was something that the Conquistadors alive following their defeat was not something they were proud about as they were held as special hostages by the various Mesoamerican confederations. During Cortes short stay in the capital of the Mexica he had allowed for the basic teachings and stories of the Bible to be translated and taught to the Mexica and Tlaxcallan priests as all the sooner they abandonded their bloody rituals and pagan gods the better the Spanish thought. With the events of Los Noches Trieste and the capture of the remaining Conquistadors the Spanish were grilled more on the nature of their faith and did their best to translate the Bible to what appeared to be willing converts to Christanity. What they did not know was that the translation of their view of Christanity instead of replacing the Mesoamerican views was incorporated into the local views.

God was soon depicted as a massive, white skull that hung in the heavens watching over the entire world and taken by the name Elwaeh a combination of El and Yahweh. In what would become popular view, the power of Elwaeh was magnified or pleased by the sacrifice of the First Born son which helped Abraham to become the anscestor of great nations and the sacrifice of the Egyptian First Born helped the Hebrews defeat their masters and conquer Cannan. It was then that Elwaeh discovered that he needed his own First Born to conquer all of the rivals and so he bore with Maria, who would be known as the Lady of Bloody Weeping Tears, in the form of a winged bird. This union brought The Son who was cultivated as a great speaker and peaceful man, depicted as a young man with flowing hair and a thorn crown around a skull face who was eventually sacrifieced by the Power of the Holy Spirit so that ELwah could rule over the eastern lands.

So in salute to this the Mesoamericans put into practice their native rituals of giving sacrifice to the White Gods. Devoutees wishing to give a non-blood sacrifice could sacrifice crucifx votives or fish to Elwaeh or the Son on ritually prepared hill spaces to be left out and taken by the gods. For blood sacrifices the blood autosacrifices, Priests and worshippers would pierce their palms or feet using thorns offering the blood or strip off bits of their flesh and offering it to statued depictions of the gods. More ritually, on the Christian Easter sacrifices to the Christian gods would be picked as a old man representing Elwaeh, a young man of a notably peaceful nature and First Born to The Son, a young Virgin to Lady Maria, and finally one who was a victim of the disease that had been brought by the Spanish for the Holy Spirit. In a procession through the city the sacrifices would be paraded around the city to the sacrificial altar dedicated to the gods where the sacrifice to The Son is given a crown of thorns to wear and is crucified, followed by the sacrifice to the Holy Spirit who would be strung up with a white bird around his or her neck. Last would be the Lady Maria wrapped in a shawl pierced into her flesh with her eyelids carved to let blood flow down her face and lastly the sacrifice to Elwaeh. The promise of sacrifice to the victims would be paradise in the heaven of the Christian gods free from the wordly despair of the earth.

It was hoped that this ritual sacrifice would please the Christian gods to taking back the disease the Spanish had brought with them andbecoming more popular with death tolls rising in periodic outbursts of disease.
 
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Well, I did do a TL where Cortes and crew are killed after La Noche. The Introduction of Plague and Revolting subjects spells doom for the majority of the Aztec Empire which splinters. Though the various states that emerge do what they can to gain the knowledge of the surviving Conquistadors and marry them off to local women. Spain gets embroiled in war in Europe and a worse Civil Revolt leads to the French stepping into the region and the Mexica and Tlaxcallans allying to fight off a Tarascan-Mixtec alliance. Also the Mesoamericans take a very...literal syncretic version of the Bible stories into their religion.

...That is terrifying... Where can I read more?
 
Yeah hard to delay the inevitable, but if you kill Cortez and the Aztecs fall then it'll take a while for all of the splinter states to get squished one by one, which might give the Andean peoples time to recover demographically (at least a bit) from some of the diseases and to otherwise at least make a go of staying independent for a while.
 
At the same time, it would be possible for Spain and Europe in general to respect the sovereignty of these far off Empires. The monarchs, back in Europe, originally had this attitude - conquering a far of nation was seen as rather impractical, and then they had to answer the question of what to do with all your new non-christian subjects.

The problem was the "greedy adventurous Spanish men would in their thousands be more impressed by the rewards rather the risks and thus Aztec doom would not be not postponed for long." Cortez and the conquistadors, more often than not, acted on their own and then handed conquered lands to Spain in hopes for a reward (more often then not the reward wasn't quite what they expected). Spain was then "forced" into acquiring the territories - not that the later monarchs didn't have a change in attitude once silver and other practical riches were discovered in this land.

It was also the relative ease - thanks mostly to diseases, local rivalries, and other outside issues - with which Cortez, and later Pizarro conquered these lands that then drove thousands of other "greedy adventurous Spanish men" into hoping to achieve similar conquest - some of the craziest of these men like Martin de Rada and Diego de Artieda even considered trying to conquer China. Obviously the circumstances there were quite different.



What was that movie? "Aguirre, the wrath of God?" Aquire TWOG? A who?:)



Outside these "greedy adventurous Spanish men" the fact that disease was killing the local residents by the lot and essentially leaving land empty free for the taking wasn't helping.

So in short yes, the book is right - but if the conquest is delayed. Say Cotez fails, and so does the following expedition, then the risks of adventure becomes more apparent than the reward and some of the less greedy and adventurous are put off.



In this case then terms of conquest and subjugation might be quite differently than OTL. You might end up with a local vassal of Spain. The Incas, who were father away from Spain and were also larger more united (even if they just came out of a bloody civil war) might have a better chance under these circumstances of surviving.

If the next expedition has thousands of men it can't fail. If it has only a
few hundred and fails, that will be duly noted in evaluating risks and rewards, and what is needed. How familiar are you with Gold Fever?:)

As the Spaniard said to the Inca, we have an illness that only be treated by evermore gold.
 
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