Oh, Canada, Where Art Thou?

[benjamin]

So as many of you have may have noticed I really think the only way the Confederacy could have gained its independence is with direct British intervention. This would be rather improbable; neither Lincoln nor British politicians were that foolish.

BUT say they were...let's go with a worse Trent Affair that leads to bloodshed and forces Britain to respond while Lincoln is suffering through one of his Dark Moods while grieving for a lost son.

Now Britain is the money and brawn that ensures Southern independence, with France tagging along.

How long does it take for Britain to greatly regret its decision? How does Canada, which sent many volunteers to fight for the Union, react? At which point does the Great Rapproachment occur?

Surely, Davis's going back on his agreement to push for an end to slavery (assured to Lyons in a back room meeting) causes the first feelings of misgivings in the Palmerston government. Can Cobdon rally an opposition? Or is Britain stuck being allied to a slave power in order to save Canada?

Benjamin

 

[Luminous]

If Britain joins the CSA early enough for them to actually make some kind of difference, the CSA will retain slavery. By the point that the CSA would be willing to remove the institution on their own, the British wouldn't be able to do anything to assist the CSA.

So, you're left with helping the CSA earlier in the war along with all the trouble that would ensue thereof. I would speculate that Canadians in service of the Union Army would feel betrayed by Great Britain throwing in its lot with the CSA and giving up the good fight in the process. As to what they would do? Some would leave to defend their home, some would stay and asked to be reassigned to the west or the southern theaters, and a few would call it quits.

If Great Britain manages to keep a single state in the CSA out of the Union by the end of the war, the Great Rapproachment as we know it would be shot to pieces, never to rise again for decades, if ever.

And that would be ironic, stuck allied to the Confederates in order to save Canada from the war that they declared, dragging Canada in the first place.

 

[TFSmith121]

Ahem...

So as many of you have may have noticed I really think the only way the Confederacy could have gained its independence is with direct British intervention. This would be rather improbable; neither Lincoln nor British politicians were that foolish.

BUT say they were...let's go with a worse Trent Affair that leads to bloodshed and forces Britain to respond while Lincoln is suffering through one of his Dark Moods while grieving for a lost son.

Now Britain is the money and brawn that ensures Southern independence, with France tagging along.

How long does it take for Britain to greatly regret its decision? How does Canada, which sent many volunteers to fight for the Union, react? At which point does the Great Rapproachment occur?

Surely, Davis's going back on his agreement to push for an end to slavery (assured to Lyons in a back room meeting) causes the first feelings of misgivings in the Palmerston government. Can Cobdon rally an opposition? Or is Britain stuck being allied to a slave power in order to save Canada?

Benjamin

Ahem...

USS Shameless Plug, arriving.

Burnished Rows of Steel

 

[benjamin]

Ahem...

USS Shameless Plug, arriving.

Burnished Rows of Steel

As much as we seem very much on the same page regarding the ACW I must admit only skimming BROS. I'm slowly revamping my old War of the Two Commonwealths and have a tendency of unintentionally pilfering ideas. That's something I'm trying hard to avoid but I think I'll give your TL a gander. It's seems highly regarded around here.

Benjamin

 

[TFSmith121]

Thanks - appreciate your thoughts.

As much as we seem very much on the same page regarding the ACW I must admit only skimming BROS. I'm slowly revamping my old War of the Two Commonwealths and have a tendency of unintentionally pilfering ideas. That's something I'm trying hard to avoid but I think I'll give your TL a gander. It's seems highly regarded around here.

Benjamin

Thanks - appreciate your thoughts.

There are a couple of others; EnglishCanuck's, which is back a few pages and is nicely written, although he and I differ on the realities of Britain's ability to project power to North America in 1861-63, and significantly on the relative abilities of the US and BNA to mobilize in 1862-63.

There's an old one which is really out there, pretty much the definition of IMPERIAL STORM, which you can find if you look; the takeaway from that one that sort of leapt off the page was the naval battle on Lake Erie in January.

Best,

 

[benjamin]

Thanks - appreciate your thoughts.

There are a couple of others; EnglishCanuck's, which is back a few pages and is nicely written, although he and I differ on the realities of Britain's ability to project power to North America in 1861-63, and significantly on the relative abilities of the US and BNA to mobilize in 1862-63.

There's an old one which is really out there, pretty much the definition of IMPERIAL STORM, which you can find if you look; the takeaway from that one that sort of leapt off the page was the naval battle on Lake Erie in January.

Best,

I have seen both of those. I've been around here for a long time. You weren't around when 67th Tigers was here, were you? His take on the ACW was interesting to say the least. Find some of his posts regarding the greatness of George McClellan if you want some good eye rolling material.

Thanks for the info, though.

Benjamin

 

[RedBaron223]

Alot of Canadians who served with the Union didn't volunteer in the first place. While I believe 40,000 people from modern day Canada served on both sides, thousands were basically kidnapped. With governments receiving missing persons reports of mothers who received letters asking for help out of the American army after disappearing for weeks and many people last being seen talking to American sounding men who was buying them beer by the barrel and barely taking a sip themselves. Granted their were far more people who volunteered, but there was also quite a bit of sympathy towards the CSA. They were a small nation who was fending off the mighty US by the themselves, even if it was about slavery. Their was also border skirmishes during the war along with threats from US representatives to either give them free guns and men and money or stay out completely otherwise their will be very hostile actions taken. This was one of the reasons confederation happened.
I felt I should add this because I was given the impression that you thought Canada was an unofficial ally, if I am wrong and that last remark offended you, them I'm very sorry and please ignore this.

 

[TFSmith121]

You're welcome...

I have seen both of those. I've been around here for a long time. You weren't around when 67th Tigers was here, were you? His take on the ACW was interesting to say the least. Find some of his posts regarding the greatness of George McClellan if you want some good eye rolling material.

Thanks for the info, though.

Benjamin

You're welcome...

No, I wasn't here when that one was live.

Best,

 

[TFSmith121]

You may want to look for:

Alot of Canadians who served with the Union didn't volunteer in the first place. While I believe 40,000 people from modern day Canada served on both sides, thousands were basically kidnapped. With governments receiving missing persons reports of mothers who received letters asking for help out of the American army after disappearing for weeks and many people last being seen talking to American sounding men who was buying them beer by the barrel and barely taking a sip themselves. Granted their were far more people who volunteered, but there was also quite a bit of sympathy towards the CSA. They were a small nation who was fending off the mighty US by the themselves, even if it was about slavery. Their was also border skirmishes during the war along with threats from US representatives to either give them free guns and men and money or stay out completely otherwise their will be very hostile actions taken. This was one of the reasons confederation happened.
I felt I should add this because I was given the impression that you thought Canada was an unofficial ally, if I am wrong and that last remark offended you, them I'm very sorry and please ignore this.

You may want to look for:

British North Americans who fought in the American Civil War, 1861-65, by DR Jenkins; the (Canadian) National Library has it posted.

Lays a lot of the "shanghaied" myths to rest.

Best,

 

[The Gunslinger]

Probably a poorer world overall. Britain will have to spend vast sums of money to keep Canada safe and would presumable shift a lot of its foreign investment elsewhere so it gets a lot smaller ROI. America will have been shorn of a lot of territory, have reduced foreign investment and probably have a larger standing army.

Not too great of a time for anyone involved I suspect.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

How long does it take for Britain to greatly regret its decision?

5-15 years give or take. The sour aftertaste of precisely what the Confederacy is will come back to haunt the Liberal Party for a while, maybe giving the Little Englanders a boost.

How does Canada, which sent many volunteers to fight for the Union, react?

Those volunteers do what mostly happened historically. Those with minor misgivings demand to only fight the Confederacy, those with major misgivings desert or go home to fight for the Crown[1].

Canada on her own comes away much more hostile to its Southern neighbor and a major identity boost and the beginnings of a practical military tradition. Not to mention more British investment.

At which point does the Great Rapproachment occur?

If it ever does at all. Maybe 75 years down the line, maybe tensions remain forever. However, unless the two nations give each other a reason to go to war I can see them more concerned with preventing a repeat of the previous war by attempting to step lightly around the other side, but being prepared to give economic aid to each others enemies.

Surely, Davis's going back on his agreement to push for an end to slavery (assured to Lyons in a back room meeting) causes the first feelings of misgivings in the Palmerston government.

Source for this? I'm unaware of Davis ever making an offer like this. It doesn't strike me as incredibly likely.

Can Cobdon rally an opposition?

No.

Or is Britain stuck being allied to a slave power in order to save Canada?

No. There's often a misapprehension I find with Britain being forced to prop up the CSA in the aftermath of these scenarios. What reason do they have to do so? In their eyes the CSA can swim or sink on its own, the Union will be distracted by it whatever happens. There's no compelling realpolitik reason for Britain to bind itself to the CSA, or an economic one.

The CSA would have to try and keep Britain on its side and it has no means of compelling Britain to defend her.

 

[RedBaron223]

You may want to look for:

British North Americans who fought in the American Civil War, 1861-65, by DR Jenkins; the (Canadian) National Library has it posted.

Lays a lot of the "shanghaied" myths to rest.

Best,

I'm mostly using what I remembered reading in "Blood and Daring: How Canada Fought the American Civil War and Forged a Nation" granted I was very tired and in a bad mood when I made that post so it isn't very reliable. I was mostly just annoyed that the assumption was that "Canadians " as a collective were nostly willing to die in an American war and automatically chose good ol' Uncle Sam. Again, Granted this was quite a leap but it what I always see and hear when I barely finish my first sentence on the topic and people automatically ignore me. I felt I should correct one of the more annoying inaccuracies that I encounter when I thought I recognized it.
But my point still stands, a good chunk of the British Colonials serving in the Union army were not doing it out of the good of their heart or consent so it would definitely have an impact on the US army. That was what I failed at trying to contribute to this discussion.
Again very sorry for my poor and rather aggressive delivery.
Never heard of that book and doubt I'll be able to find it where I live. Don't even think amazon delivers anything to my region.

 

[TFSmith121]

It is actually on-line, so if you go to the

I'm mostly using what I remembered reading in "Blood and Daring: How Canada Fought the American Civil War and Forged a Nation" granted I was very tired and in a bad mood when I made that post so it isn't very reliable. I was mostly just annoyed that the assumption was that "Canadians " as a collective were nostly willing to die in an American war and automatically chose good ol' Uncle Sam. Again, Granted this was quite a leap but it what I always see and hear when I barely finish my first sentence on the topic and people automatically ignore me. I felt I should correct one of the more annoying inaccuracies that I encounter when I thought I recognized it.
But my point still stands, a good chunk of the British Colonials serving in the Union army were not doing it out of the good of their heart or consent so it would definitely have an impact on the US army. That was what I failed at trying to contribute to this discussion.
Again very sorry for my poor and rather aggressive delivery.
Never heard of that book and doubt I'll be able to find it where I live. Don't even think amazon delivers anything to my region.

It is actually on-line, so if you go to the CNL website and search, you should find it.

Best,