Ogadai survives a bit more

[htgriffin]

General Thoughts

I am a little unsure about the degree of *Spanish (and to a lesser extent Chinese) expansion into Subsaharan Africa. Not only is the terrain south of the Sahel less than suited for North-African warfare but the disease enviroment was murder on Eurasians & North Africans before 18th century medical advances.

To what degree are Ethiopia and Zimbabwe influenced by Chinese cultural contacts (and vice versa)?

HTG

 

[Faeelin]

Humm. Why didn't the Scots take over the New World kingdoms?

 

[Condottiero]

I am a little unsure about the degree of *Spanish (and to a lesser extent Chinese) expansion into Subsaharan Africa. Not only is the terrain south of the Sahel less than suited for North-African warfare but the disease enviroment was murder on Eurasians & North Africans before 18th century medical advances.

To what degree are Ethiopia and Zimbabwe influenced by Chinese cultural contacts (and vice versa)?

HTG

How far do you think they could arrive? Should the Chinese concentrate on Cape region?

 

[Condottiero]

Humm. Why didn't the Scots take over the New World kingdoms?

On next chapter probably... however I was thinking on making them survive. The Scots would not be so aggresive as XVI castillians, and the Aztecs could be more prepared.

One idea I had was to have an incan-scottish alliance against aztecs-chinese!

 

[Galbatorix]

On next chapter probably... however I was thinking on making them survive. The Scots would not be so aggresive as XVI castillians, and the Aztecs could be more prepared.

One idea I had was to have an incan-scottish alliance against aztecs-chinese!

please. an aztec nation in north america arriving to the xx century rivaling with a chinese-america!

 

[Condottiero]

How far do you think they could arrive? Should the Chinese concentrate on Cape region?

Please any comments on this!!

 

[htgriffin]

How far do you think they could arrive?

I am thinking mainly trading posts along the coasts insofar as tropical Africa is concerned, although client kingdoms and other states could well radiate outward with Eurasian tech.

Should the Chinese concentrate on Cape region?

Oh certainly. If this is still pre-gunpowder they could not swat the Bantus already there aside without serious effort, but a settler colony is still rather viable.

HTG

 

[Condottiero]

If this is still pre-gunpowder they could not swat the Bantus already there aside without serious effort, but a settler colony is still rather viable.

HTG

Most of the Eurasians are using gunpowder. Probably not as developed as in OTL but they have fireweapons.

 

[JHPier]

A note on the first map: Axoum had gone by the 13C, it had been replaced by the Solomonic Empire.
The Almoravids should be the Almohads (who were by 1250 in the process of being replaced by the Marinids).
There wasn't as yet an Inca Empire. Tiwanaku had collapsed in the mid-12C and nothing much replaced it until ca.1400 when the Incas got started.
Between Champa and China Vietnam aleady existed (and in OTL they managed to fight off the Mongols).
Sung China wasn't conquered yet in 1250.
Angkor lay further east in the Mekong valley.
The Swahili never had a single kingdom.
In Mesoamerica the Toltecs were still on top I think.

Spain: I don't really see greater tolerance arising out of this. Following the Reconquista latge parts of the Algarve and southern Castile were pretty much emptied of Muslims who fled to Granada - with 1 million people in the 15C one of the most densely populated areas in Western Europe of the day. With a lot of Western Europeans fleeing the Mongols there will be the people to fill up these lands.
Nor do I think Granada will be a pushover. It did Ferdinan and Isabella after all take 15 yrs, and that's with artillery.

Where do the Livonians spring from? They were subjects of the Teutonic Knights at the time of the mongol invasion.

I think your Mongol successor states take a long time to assimilate to their subjects' religion. OTL's took little more than a generation.

A major reason for kublai's failure to keep control over the western khanates was that he was troubled by a rebellion by a Chinggisid named Qaidu(?) who was in control of the Mongol homeland for most of Kublai's reign.

I feel that to have the Timurids, Safavids, Uzbeks etc. crop up under the same name and in the same place this long after your POD is rather unlikely.

 

[Condottiero]

A note on the first map: Axoum had gone by the 13C, it had been replaced by the Solomonic Empire.

I know I found it much later when I started filling up all the map.

The Almoravids should be the Almohads (who were by 1250 in the process of being replaced by the Marinids).

Oooops. I did realize after posting the revised version, but as nobody noticed it I made the change much later. I was planning to do a definite version when I arrive to the XX century.

There wasn't as yet an Inca Empire. Tiwanaku had collapsed in the mid-12C and nothing much replaced it until ca.1400 when the Incas got started.

I was not sure when it had appeared. However it was the same problem as before, I wanted to fill the map.

Between Champa and China Vietnam aleady existed (and in OTL they managed to fight off the Mongols).

<
This one was unknown to me. I'll note it down.

Sung China wasn't conquered yet in 1250.

This does not match with the sources I consulted. I'll verify again anyway.

Angkor lay further east in the Mekong valley.

I'll correct it, but it was just a problem when putting the labels.

The Swahili never had a single kingdom.

I found something about a loose confederation of kingdoms, a butterfly in form of commercial boost with chinese tradrers, and voila! we have it.

In Mesoamerica the Toltecs were still on top I think.

Disappeared in those years more or less. Probably I made it a bit early.

Spain: I don't really see greater tolerance arising out of this. Following the Reconquista latge parts of the Algarve and southern Castile were pretty much emptied of Muslims who fled to Granada - with 1 million people in the 15C one of the most densely populated areas in Western Europe of the day. With a lot of Western Europeans fleeing the Mongols there will be the people to fill up these lands.

But you have Alfonso X in those years. He created the translators School in Toledo and considered himself as the Emperor of the Three Cultures, they were ages of great tolerance and of arrival of thousands of "franks" that settled all along the peninsula. If more of them come they would concentrate on the more known and milder climate lands to the north. Leaving the warmer and richer lands of the south to the locals.

Nor do I think Granada will be a pushover. It did Ferdinan and Isabella after all take 15 yrs, and that's with artillery.

That was because it had become the center of Al-Andalus, in the XIII there was nothing there but barely islamized locals that rebelled now and then. It would have been much easier to do it then than in the XV century.

Where do the Livonians spring from? They were subjects of the Teutonic Knights at the time of the mongol invasion.

New bosses in the area, they turn against their masters siding with the new ones. Later they start working on their own. Another butterfly.

I think your Mongol successor states take a long time to assimilate to their subjects' religion. OTL's took little more than a generation.

A major reason for kublai's failure to keep control over the western khanates was that he was troubled by a rebellion by a Chinggisid named Qaidu(?) who was in control of the Mongol homeland for most of Kublai's reign.

That was an ASB problem. I was not sure what to do with them: assimilate, disappear or made the locals assimilate.

I feel that to have the Timurids, Safavids, Uzbeks etc. crop up under the same name and in the same place this long after your POD is rather unlikely.

What would be your hypothesis? I thought it would not have affected. I just wanted to have mongol states in Europe. But I am opened to new ideas.

By the way, where have you been since I posted this first? These were some of the comments I wanted. Thank you.

 

[Neroon]

Seems i was right before and the Mongols did conquer a big chunk of Europe after all.

Ming China seems to do a lot better than historically. If it does not slip into self - imposed stagnation, it'll be the superpower later on. While events in Europe might actually re-converge to pretty somewhat close to OTL if the Mongols continue on being assimilated.

New World being Scandinavian instead of Anglo-Norman i c. Hopefully that'll make the future U.S. of A. less puritan!

 

[Condottiero]

Yes, my idea was to have a Chinese superpower, several european powers (with Spain more Africa-centered), some other big powers (Incans, evolving to a socialist-like state, Moghul empire or a mega-Safavid state) and a surviving Byzantine empire.

 

[JHPier]

I was not sure when it had appeared. However it was the same problem as before, I wanted to fill the map..

Point is, the Altiplano suffered a bout of bad drought in this period, dropping the level of Lake Titicaca by as much as 50 mrs at times. That sort of thing is not conducive to empire-building

This does not match with the sources I consulted. I'll verify again anyway...

Chinggis Khan conquered the Chin (or Jin) of north China. Kublai started his assault on Sung China (the south) in 1258.

I'll correct it, but it was just a problem when putting the labels....

Angkor abutted Champa. The two fought a good many wars.

But you have Alfonso X in those years. He created the translators School in Toledo and considered himself as the Emperor of the Three Cultures, they were ages of great tolerance and of arrival of thousands of "franks" that settled all along the peninsula. If more of them come they would concentrate on the more known and milder climate lands to the north. Leaving the warmer and richer lands of the south to the locals.....

Except that these more known and milder climate lands to the north would already have been full while the warmer and richer lands of the south would be pretty empty. And while Alfonso may be tolerant, the influx of a huge number of people from lands where the burning of heretics and persecution of jews is the norm is going to erode that tolerance quite soon.

That was because it had become the center of Al-Andalus, in the XIII there was nothing there but barely islamized locals that rebelled now and then. It would have been much easier to do it then than in the XV century......

It was the center in the 13C, being basically the only bit left. And it was the destination of choice for all the muslims fleeing the Reconquista.

What would be your hypothesis? I thought it would not have affected. I just wanted to have mongol states in Europe. But I am opened to new ideas..

You have lots of steppe warriors end up in Europe, how can you say it would not have affected? I'd say invent new names. All these dynastys and states were called after their founder. A different founder gives a different name.

By the way, where have you been since I posted this first? These were some of the comments I wanted. Thank you.

I guess it was too far down the list.

 

[JHPier]

Pursuing the matter of Spain

The agrarian relations in modern Spain are still sharply different in the north vs. the south. In the north smallholdings predominated. This is usually explained as that rhe Christian states at the beginning of the Reconquista, with the Caliphate of Cordoba still intact, needed every fighting man they could muster, whether footmen or cavalry, so the kings made sure that peasants were not reduced to serfdom.
By the time they conquered the south, after Las Navas de Tolosa, this was no longer necessary, so great noble estates were carved out, initially devoted to sheep, as the local muslims had largely gone.

I get the impression that Al-Andalus by 1200 was about as Muslim as Syria or Egypt. Both the Murabits (Almoravids to the Spaniards) and the Muwahids (or Almohads) started out as fundamentalist sects, coming out of the Sahara resp. the High Atlas, with initially a low level of tolerance (though in their later days they employed Christian mercenary knights to try hold onto power at home).

 

[Condottiero]

Pursuing the matter of Spain

The agrarian relations in modern Spain are still sharply different in the north vs. the south. In the north smallholdings predominated. This is usually explained as that rhe Christian states at the beginning of the Reconquista, with the Caliphate of Cordoba still intact, needed every fighting man they could muster, whether footmen or cavalry, so the kings made sure that peasants were not reduced to serfdom.

It was also a cultural issue. On Castille you had structures like those due a non-existent feudal structure (weak noblemen and strong towns) devised to favour the settlement of peasants in a conflictive area. Leon, Aragon and Navarre were more feudal with strong noblemen and weaker towns (except in Barcelona)

By the time they conquered the south, after Las Navas de Tolosa, this was no longer necessary, so great noble estates were carved out, initially devoted to sheep, as the local muslims had largely gone.

You are right then things changed, but gefore that you had in what it is now Castilla-La Mancha huge properties belonging to the Military Orders (Calatrava mainly) that broke that tendency.

I get the impression that Al-Andalus by 1200 was about as Muslim as Syria or Egypt. Both the Murabits (Almoravids to the Spaniards) and the Muwahids (or Almohads) started out as fundamentalist sects, coming out of the Sahara resp. the High Atlas, with initially a low level of tolerance (though in their later days they employed Christian mercenary knights to try hold onto power at home).

In fact they used them almost since the IX century. The Cid Campeador (XI century) fought both for Christians and Muslims. But the Christian Kings had also muslim troops, as late as during the reign of Enrique IV (XV century) there was a regiment of moorish knights at the service of the king.

 

[Condottiero]

Chinggis Khan conquered the Chin (or Jin) of north China. Kublai started his assault on Sung China (the south) in 1258.

I found the year 1247, maybe it was the beginning of the campaign.

Except that these more known and milder climate lands to the north would already have been full while the warmer and richer lands of the south would be pretty empty. And while Alfonso may be tolerant, the influx of a huge number of people from lands where the burning of heretics and persecution of jews is the norm is going to erode that tolerance quite soon.It was the center in the 13C, being basically the only bit left. And it was the destination of choice for all the muslims fleeing the Reconquista.

That puts us after the fall of Cordoba, Sevilla and Niebla the three main surviving Taifa Kingdoms. Granada was a territory dependent to Cordoba, people lived in the Guadalquivir valley where there were olive trees and they could grow cereals, not in rough terrain barely apt for some sheep herding.
If the christians do the move before the moors group around a kingdom of Granada, it would have been easier.

However I agree with you that maybe there should be more tensions and less tolerance, that would lead to a more expansionistic Kingdom... I'll take it into account when I rewrite this part.

What about China, do you think their client states and colonies would grow in the XVI-XVII centuries?

Thank you again for your comments.

 

[Keenir]

The Mongols probably could not get rid of the Turks completely, but they can definitely contain them. They might also see the horse-archer Turks as more difficult to control than the settled Byzantines, and focus on wiping them out.

given that a large % of the Mongol army (even in Genghis' time) was Turkish, why would the horse-archer Mongols want to get rid of the Anatolian&Persian Turks?
*curious*

 

[Keenir]

The Mongols were good at Siege warfare and they were the best army of the age. That said, taking castles takes time regardless of how good you are it.
It also takes a significant number of troops and keeps the army locked in position, a very dangerous prospect when your likely to be outnumbered by any relief.

ah, but the Mongols had Chinese explosives, while Europeans didn't.

 

[Keenir]

One longterm effect would be that just like in Russia, the rule of Mongols would leave absolutists rule tradition combined with cruealty and disregard for invidual life.

is that a heritage of the Mongols, or just the heritage of tsarist absolutism?

 

[Keenir]

Also, wasn't Anatolia being deserted before 1071? IIRC, the Byzantine nobles were confiscating small estates, and raising... sheep.

I believe the proper response here is *snerk*

I could be wrong.

I mean, look at what the Mongols did pretty much everywhere but in Russia. They assimilated pretty quickly.

Genghis Khaan invaded the Chinas....it wasn't until Hugelu(sp) that a Mongol leader "went native".

I think the Ilkhans took a while longer than even that.