Ogadai survives a bit more

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
That's why I said "Turkified", not "was entirely populated by people of Turkic ethnicity". If that had not been the case, Turks would look Mongoloid instead of European.

Turkish culture and language didn't become predominant "to some extent", it was totally predominant. The ethnicity, as anywhere else, is irrelevant. The term "Turk" in the context of modern Turkey (or the Ottoman empire) has no relevant ethnic content.

You seem to want to be insulting with the "JUST the decendents" line - Turks are the GLORIOUS product of a world-empire that absorbed the cultures and peoples of vast stretches of the planet.


I didnt mean anything insulting. I was just pointing out that the people didnt change so much ethnically as they did culturally, like the Puerto Ricans.
 
In Australia, the Chinese might find Arnhem Land more suitable to colonize. Merchants from the Indonesian port of Macassar are known to have gone there to find trepang (a type of sea slug) to trade to China (where it was a prized delicacy) for some time before Europeans arrived. I'm not sure if the part of Australia you've had them colonize on your map has trepang or not...
 
Two things...

1. Where do the Ottomans come from, and how exactly do they seize control over most of Eastern Europe?

2. The Mongol ruling elites were not Nestorian. Many of the women were (the Mongols took their wives from the Kereit tribe, which was largely Nestorian), but the actual rulers tended to be shamanistic and religiously tolerant.
 
Does one learn religion from one's father or mother? Of course, there is nothing to prevent the Jochids from going Muslim like they did OTL. They could succeed where the Arabs, Moors, and OTL's Ottomans failed: an Islamic Europe!
 
I thought they were mostly nestorians. However their religious pragmatism could lead them to convert to the religion of their new subjects in Germany and SE Europe.

As for the Ottomans, I wanted something different, and push them to Eastern Europe instead to Anatolya. Would it be possible for them to absorb populations there and have an Islamic Eastern Europe and Russia?
 
i think the otomans and all the turk tribes coming with them can change the ethnic composition of central europe. we have a first wave of mongols, then several wars that move more inhabitants to other areas, in the end the otomans come and repopulate poland and ukrania.
 
Galbatorix said:
i think the otomans and all the turk tribes coming with them can change the ethnic composition of central europe. we have a first wave of mongols, then several wars that move more inhabitants to other areas, in the end the otomans come and repopulate poland and ukrania.

The Ottomans were a dynasty though, not an ethnicity. Even if the Ottoman dynasty was able to seize the reins of power in Eastern Europe, I don't think they'd have the numbers to Turkify Poland and Ukraine. However, you did say they would bring other Turkic tribes with them, and that would affect the numbers.

If the Mongols attack the Seljuks, I think we can butterfly the Ottomans out entirely--it's likely that they'd die in the ensuing conflagration.
 
MerryPrankster said:
The Ottomans were a dynasty though, not an ethnicity. Even if the Ottoman dynasty was able to seize the reins of power in Eastern Europe, I don't think they'd have the numbers to Turkify Poland and Ukraine. However, you did say they would bring other Turkic tribes with them, and that would affect the numbers.

If the Mongols attack the Seljuks, I think we can butterfly the Ottomans out entirely--it's likely that they'd die in the ensuing conflagration.
i thought they arrived later to anatoly, that they came from central asia following the seljuks. ?what if they arrive when the seljuks had been crused by the mongol-byzantines and they turn to east europe as condo suggests? ?can other turk tribes come after them and islamize poland?
 
Galbatorix said:
i thought they arrived later to anatoly, that they came from central asia following the seljuks. ?what if they arrive when the seljuks had been crused by the mongol-byzantines and they turn to east europe as condo suggests? ?can other turk tribes come after them and islamize poland?

John will probably know better, but I was under the impression the Ottomans were in Asia Minor during the late Seljuk period--they served as border guards for the Seljuks and decided to expand into the rotting corpse of Byzantium.

Hmm...an Ottoman-led migration of Turkic tribes into Eastern Europe might Islamize Poland (or at least install an Islamic ruling class and probably cause some conversions--once the Empire falls, we might have Bosnia-like scenarios). The scenario posits them as smacking Mongol Rum down and taking the land.

I just would have appreciated some sort of explanation as to why they suddenly showed up. Perhaps including an explanation as to what the Mongol victories in the West stirred up in Central Asia would have a good idea.
 
Ooops. :eek:
You are right. In my TL I should have destroyed them between the Persians (Timurids) and the Khanate of Rum. At least creating this TL is making me learning about history in other regions I have never worried much about.

I'll change that part. However, what other possibilities do I have to create a powerful islamic nation in Europe? I do not want to do it destroying the Khanate of Rum... that neo-byzantine empire is quite appealing.
 
Didn't the Ottomans sort-of come out of nowhere? As did the Macedonians, the Romans, the Mongols, the Franks, the Aztecs and most other great conquerers throughout history. You could still probably have a group of Turks or some other Islamic people conquer Eastern Europe, but they don't necessarilly have to be the Ottomans.
 
Condottiero said:
Ooops. :eek:
You are right. In my TL I should have destroyed them between the Persians (Timurids) and the Khanate of Rum. At least creating this TL is making me learning about history in other regions I have never worried much about.

I'll change that part. However, what other possibilities do I have to create a powerful islamic nation in Europe? I do not want to do it destroying the Khanate of Rum... that neo-byzantine empire is quite appealing.

It's hard to know what the real origins of the Ottomans were. According to the dynastic legends, they arrived after the Mongols, and saved the Rum Seljuk Sultan in a battle against a Mongol force - in any case, they were established on the Byzantine border in the second half of the 13th c.
 
Condottiero said:
Ooops. :eek:
You are right. In my TL I should have destroyed them between the Persians (Timurids) and the Khanate of Rum. At least creating this TL is making me learning about history in other regions I have never worried much about.

I'll change that part. However, what other possibilities do I have to create a powerful islamic nation in Europe? I do not want to do it destroying the Khanate of Rum... that neo-byzantine empire is quite appealing.

Well, unless you want Grenada or some other combination of territories in Islamic Spain to survive and become major trading powers (think the Dutch), that might be a tad bit difficult to pull off.
 
Condottiero said:
I'll change that part. However, what other possibilities do I have to create a powerful islamic nation in Europe? I do not want to do it destroying the Khanate of Rum... that neo-byzantine empire is quite appealing.
Have the Lithuanians converted to Christianity yet? They built a strong nation while still pagan OTL, they could possibly convert to Islam...
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
It's hard to know what the real origins of the Ottomans were. According to the dynastic legends, they arrived after the Mongols, and saved the Rum Seljuk Sultan in a battle against a Mongol force - in any case, they were established on the Byzantine border in the second half of the 13th c.

Ignoring dynastic legends, the Ottomans were a ch. 13 reorganization and renaming of the Anatolian Seljuks. Everything I've seen shows the Ottomans and Seljuks being one and the same. They named themselves after a great leader with a new vision, same as the "first" Seljuks. First they were Oghuz, then Seljuk, then Osmanli, now Turk. One of the most interesting ethnic stories. Not that I'm in any position to challange Abdul on anything Turkish, but that hasn't stop me from shooting my keyboard off. ;)

I like Imajin's idea. We could have the Lithuanians be the base of Middle Europe 'Tatars' as the Volga Bulgars and Nogai/Kipchaks were for the Far East Europe 'Tatars'.
 
Part 3 revised

1350 The Persian Khanate (Il-Khanatate) starts to disintegrate between different factions.
1351 Agadai Khan of the Rum converts to Ortodox faith adopting the name of Alexander I Xanade and the title of Emperor of the Rum. His court and most of the mongol court adopt byzantine uses.
1353 The Almohades invade and destroy the Almoravid empire threatening Hispanian territories in North Africa.
1355 Alexander I invades Anatolia defeating the Seljuk army near Ancyra.
1357-1365 Rodrigo IV of Hispania declares a crusade and invades the Almohade Empire. The crusade ends with the destruction of the Almohades. The victory increases the Hispanic national pride and it starts an era of intolerance over islamic and jewish minorities. Most of the Hispanic muslims are "invited" to abandon the Iberian peninsula and settle in the newly acquired territories.
1363 Chagathai Khan conquers the other Persian Khans creating the Timurid Empire. War between the Lithuanian and the Frank Khanates. The Lithuanians are defeated but the Khan of the Franks dies in the battle.
1365 The Timurids invade the Egyptian Sultanate.
1374 Khitan Khan of the Franks decides to convert to Catholicism and to adopt the title of King of Saxony. He is crowned in Turin by Pope Innocent IV.
1379 Rebelion of the islamic population in Morocco.
1381 The Timurids defeat an army of the Rum Empire, but they have to retreat after failing to take Constantinople.
1382 Scottish ships start exploring the African coast.
A Ming army defeats the Mongols in Yunnan.
1383 Rodrigo IV dies in campaign against the islamic rebels. His brother Enrique III assumes the Hispanic throne.
1387 Pope Innocent IV appoints Simon Haraldson as bishop of the new diocese of Nova Thule (OTL Terranova).
1385 Enrique III ends the Moroccan rebelion. The surviving muslim population is forced to convert or being exiled ("Act of Conversion"). The order is not fully obeyed but only a fraction of the islamic population remains.
The Hispanic king gives "Fueros" to all new christian settlements in Morocco, in order to attract settlers rumour of a miraculous image found in Marraketch spreads over Western Europe.
1398 Timur Lan invades the Sultanate of Delhi.
1402 Zhu Di ("Yaounle") becomes Emperor of China.
1404 Chagathai Khan dies while marching to the Middle Kingdom.
1405-1407 First expedition of Zheng He. Chinese protectorade over Sri Vijaya and Sri Lanka. His fleet reaches the coast of Yin-du.
1410 The Scottish reach the Gulf of Guinea.
1422 Zhu Di dies and his son Zhu Gaozhi cancels the Treasure Fleet program.
1431 Scottish sailor Angus McPherson reaches the Skeleton Coast by the Namib desert.
1432 The new Emperor Zhu Zanji decides to renew the Treasure Fleets.
1433 Zeng He dies after having performed seven voyages.
Songhai rebellion, the Kingdom of Mali is destroyed with some help from Hispania, that seizes part of the coast as payment.
1435 Hispania recovers from the "Act of Conversion" consequences and under Rodrigo III lives a new era of progress and tolerance. The Gotho-mudejar cathedral of Marraketch is finished.
1440 The Ethiopian Solomonid Kings continue their presure over the Egyptians defeating them with the help of Ming guns and ships. King Beide-Maryan signs a cooperation treaty with the Chinese Ambassador ceding them some lands aroun Cape Guardafu to found a colony there.
1443 Chinese colonies founded in Uo Zhu (Australia), Mal Ga Yi (Magadascar) and Fei Zhou (Somalia).
1450 Scottish and Chinese ships contact in the Cape region. The first enconter is unfortunately hostile. An small scottish fleet is wiped by the huge chinese warships. However the europeans learn the lesson and they will concentrate on faster, more manoevrable ships with better guns, while the chinese remain confident on their superior ships. The Cape region is colonized by the chinese.

(to be continued)

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Part 4

The religious sitation in Europe is quite similar to that before the Mongol Invassion. The Catholic Church is quite debilitated but the relationship with the Eastern Churches has not improved. The Mongols in Germany after their conversion to Catholicism have been almost assimilated to the local population. Only the way of doing war and some ethnical characteristics in the dominant classes have changed. The Rum Empire is living a new golden era, if not culturally, politically and militarly. The Mongols in OTL Russia remain nestorian and muslim but they are integrating themselves in the local population. The presence of the islamic Livonian Khanate is hindering the expansion of the Kingdom of Novgorod.

In Western Europe there are three different policies. The Anglo-Norman Kingdom is looking for continental superiority rivalling with the Holy Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Saxony. Denmark is looking across Atlantic and Scotland, after their defeat in Africa and due to the Hispanic expansionism is also looking to the West. In Africa Hispania is becoming the hegemonic power in the North west and their king is looking greedily to Songhai.

In Asia the Timurid Empire is showing signs of decay and the Middle Empire is creating a commercial network around the indian Ocean with client states like Sri Lanka and Sri Vijaya and colonies like Uo Zhou and Fei Zhou.

In Africa Zimbabwe, the Swahili kingdom and the Kingdom of Ethiopia are profiting of the Chinese presence. While the Sultanate of Egypt is retreating in Africa while advancing in Middle East.

1452 King Enrique IV launches an offensive over Songhai and Scottish positions in Africa. Hipanic navigators reach the Cape region and contact with Chinese traders.
1457 The Chinese continue their expansion in Taiwan and Sakhalin. An invading fleet is defeated by the Japanese.
1461 Emperor Conrado II of the Holy Roman Empire deposes Pope Innocent XI and puts in St. Peter's See to the more docile John XXII who declares a crusade over Egypt.
1465 The Egyptian army is utterly destroyed near Alexandria, however Conrado II dies and his army retreats to Cirene.
1472 Unification of Scandinavia under the Danish King Christian III who manages to stop the Livonian advance.
1475 Danish expand in North America.
1484 An scottish fleet is defeated by an Hispanic one in Dakar. Scotland loses all their african colonies. King Richard IV looks to the west and announces expansion in the islands discovered by the danes.
1491 First scottish settlement in the new world in the Bahamas.
1506 The Uzbeks invade the Timurid Empire that collapses.
1513 Salomonid king Amda-Amlak uses chinese guns to defeat the egyptians seizing most of the nubian territory lost two centuries before.
1526 Babour founds the Mughal Empire in OTL India. Chinese take control of the Southern part as a protectorade.
1529 Askia Musa of the Songai defeats an hispanic army but cannot recover the annexed part.
1535 The Scottish have founded several settlements around the Caribbean region, trading treaties are signed with the Aztec and the Incan empires. Both american nations look each other as rivals.
1541 The Anglo Normans and the Spanish found their first colonies in the New World with strong Scottish and Dane opposition.
1547 The Safavids recover some possitions in the Caucasus.

(to be continued)


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