Ogadai survives a bit more

[Galbatorix]

i think it must have green for all that muslim areas in the south.

condo, ?how is the spanish society goig to evolve? ?inquisition is really dead? ?do we have a true three cultures empire?

?what is going to hapen in the americas?

 

[Hierophant]

Something Molobo said really struck me as well, odd.

He said that because Poland was tolerant, there was little mixing between various groups.

I beleive the exact opposite holds true and that if you look at history, where ever tolerance is upheld, mixing increases and cultures meld into one. Look at the Jewish people for instance. It can be argued that the reason why they have survived so long relatively unchanged in religion and even in ethnic make-up, to an extant, is because of intolerance.

People tend to cling harder to ethnic and religious ties when those ties are threatened. Look at America. Sure intolerance has abouded at one time or another against various groups, but this fades with time and is replaced with ambivalent tolerance. In the US today, American Jews are being assimilated faster then probably any other place or time in history.

So in conclusion, if the Poles are actually as homogenous as Molobo claimed (which I doubt since Poland is a pretty major route of human migration and site to several wars) then it would be because of its intolerance, perhaps an aparthied version.

 

[Hierophant]

The population of Anatolia in 1071 was pretty large too, but it quickly got entirely Turkified.

The Mongols will dismantle the Agricultural infrastructure, and that plus the process of conquest will drastically reduce the population of Europe (not to mention the plague). The conquest will also open up Europe to a huge flood of Turkic settlers, as did the Seljuk victory at Manzikert. Also, the European population will recede in the face of the Mongol advance.

I disagree to the extent that though many parts of the greater Turkish culture became predominant in Asia Minor, including to an extent the language, the peoples of Asia Minor were not replaced in a few generations with more or less ethnic turks.

Puerto Rico is an example. Previously it was thought that Puerto Ricans were a little bit of Indian, a little bit of African, but mostly Spanish in descent. However recent DNA testing has proven that the average Puerto Rican is over 60% Indian. The majority of the culture disappeared, but the people remained. It is now thought that results like this will be found throught the Caribean and Latin America.

My point being that the Turks of today are the just the descendents of a few dozen different groups that happen to speak mostly Turkish and practise Sunni Islam.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Err, where'd you hear this?

Just who do you think the Lombards were? The population of Italy is heavily Germanized, especially the North. Sicily is a tangled mess of ethnicities, amongst which Africans are prominent.

By "African", as I said, I'm not really talking about blacks.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I disagree with your correction. Anatolia, other than the coasts, Turkified almost overnight, not over centuries.

As for the rest, horse nomads like grassy plains. It's that simple. Cold, forested lands = dead horses. My point is that the mongols typically did not sustain painful efforts to conquer territories that offered them very little in return. Western Europe in this period is a tough nut to crack, in difficult terrain and weather, yet is very poor when compared to easier targets like China or Mesopotamia.

Anatolia was not being deserted - while land and power was being concentrated in the hands of landowners, the peasants didn't just leave - although there appears to have been some shift West as security began to break down.

I corrected your typo.

Also, wasn't Anatolia being deserted before 1071? IIRC, the Byzantine nobles were confiscating small estates, and raising... sheep.



While I could see the Mongols on the plains of Hungary (barely) my question is: why?

I mean, look at what the Mongols did pretty much everywhere but in Russia. They assimilated pretty quickly.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

They're interesting and they got screwed over by history.

How did they get screwed over? They pretty much ranged the whole planet. You are thinking of them as some monlithic group like the Jews in the Babylonian exile rather than what they were: members of various cultures that converted to Christianity.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I basically agree, accept that the Chinese will never settle Australia. Why would they? China is much richer and amenable to produce to which the Chinese are accustomed. Australia would require a totally new culture. Also, historically, China never, ever colonized anywhere. Even Sinkiang did not experience Chinese colonization until the 20th c.

I don't think Ming China would go after "possessions" in settled areas like Indonesia, India or Arabia. More likely, they would satellize local kingdoms and, in exchange for formal acknowledgement of their vassal status and the periodical sending of tribute, make them their privileged trading partners as well as protect them from outside interference. These places would soon be home to large overseas Chinese communities attracted by business opportunities.
In Africa and Australia, the Chinese presence would initially be limited to trading outposts, but should demographic growth in China lead to a shortage of arable land (or should protracted war or anarchy make the situation unberable), you may have actual large-scale migratory movements to those "new lands". However, Chinese settlements would be concentrated on the coastlines and fertile lowlands, leaving the hinterland natives more or less alone.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

That's why I said "Turkified", not "was entirely populated by people of Turkic ethnicity". If that had not been the case, Turks would look Mongoloid instead of European.

Turkish culture and language didn't become predominant "to some extent", it was totally predominant. The ethnicity, as anywhere else, is irrelevant. The term "Turk" in the context of modern Turkey (or the Ottoman empire) has no relevant ethnic content.

You seem to want to be insulting with the "JUST the decendents" line - Turks are the GLORIOUS product of a world-empire that absorbed the cultures and peoples of vast stretches of the planet.

I disagree to the extent that though many parts of the greater Turkish culture became predominant in Asia Minor, including to an extent the language, the peoples of Asia Minor were not replaced in a few generations with more or less ethnic turks.

Puerto Rico is an example. Previously it was thought that Puerto Ricans were a little bit of Indian, a little bit of African, but mostly Spanish in descent. However recent DNA testing has proven that the average Puerto Rican is over 60% Indian. The majority of the culture disappeared, but the people remained. It is now thought that results like this will be found throught the Caribean and Latin America.

My point being that the Turks of today are the just the descendents of a few dozen different groups that happen to speak mostly Turkish and practise Sunni Islam.

 

[MerryPrankster]

How did they get screwed over? They pretty much ranged the whole planet. You are thinking of them as some monlithic group like the Jews in the Babylonian exile rather than what they were: members of various cultures that converted to Christianity.

Well...

1. They were (falsely) accused of heresy and were stamped out in the West.

2. They managed to re-establish themselves in Persia and spread all over Inner Asia.

3. However, their mission failed in China (largely for lack of native Chinese clergy, among other things). That's their own darn fault, but a majority-Nestorian (or at least partly Nestorian) China would be interesting.

4. In Inner Asia itself, large numbers of them were killed by some sort of enemy (perhaps it wasn't Timur, but they were fleeing into the mountains of what is now Kurdistan for a reason). Lots probably dropped off anyway, since they were so far from other Christians.

5. Centuries later, the Anglican Church tries to re-establish contact with them, to the chagrin of many Anglicans, who still view them as "heretics."

6. Lots of Assyrians (the modern Nestorians) die in/around/just after WWI. The Patriarch flees to (of all places) Chicago.

7. Even though the Nestorian Patriarch and Pope John Paul II issued a joint Christological statement (thus healing the breach, which was all a misunderstanding anyway), many conservative Protestants still view the Nestorians as heretics. See the www.carm.org page on "Heresies" for example.

You do have a point that the Nestorians were not a monolithic people like the Jews, though Leo said that many Assyrians appear Asiatic b/c they spent time missionizing in the East and brought brides back with them.

 

[Condottiero]

I basically agree, accept that the Chinese will never settle Australia. Why would they? China is much richer and amenable to produce to which the Chinese are accustomed. Australia would require a totally new culture. Also, historically, China never, ever colonized anywhere. Even Sinkiang did not experience Chinese colonization until the 20th c.

How would have they reacted if a western power had appeared in the Indian Ocean in the time of Treasure Fleets? Would China have fought to keep the "exclusive" Indian Ocean comercial area?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Well...

6. Lots of Assyrians (the modern Nestorians) die in/around/just after WWI.

My, that was diplomatic.

 

[Faeelin]

Just who do you think the Lombards were? The population of Italy is heavily Germanized, especially the North. Sicily is a tangled mess of ethnicities, amongst which Africans are prominent.

By "African", as I said, I'm not really talking about blacks.

I know; I just thought that the reason Sicilians and whatnot were darker was because of the Arabs and so forth, not because of the importation of North African slaves.

 

[Faeelin]

I basically agree, accept that the Chinese will never settle Australia. Why would they? China is much richer and amenable to produce to which the Chinese are accustomed. Australia would require a totally new culture. Also, historically, China never, ever colonized anywhere. Even Sinkiang did not experience Chinese colonization until the 20th c.

Taiwan and Manchuria were both colonized, and there are millions (billions?) of people in South and Southeast Asia of Chinese ancestry.

 

[MerryPrankster]

My, that was diplomatic.

I didn't say anything about who did it. I think it was actually the pro-British Hashemite monarchy of Iraq, in reprisal against an Assyrian uprising of some kind.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Taiwan and Manchuria were both colonized, and there are millions (billions?) of people in South and Southeast Asia of Chinese ancestry.

That's not the same thing, as you're talking about adjacent territories, and Taiwan wasn't really colonized until the 20th c. Would you call Ottoman Mesopotamia a colony?

 

[Faeelin]

That's not the same thing, as you're talking about adjacent territories, and Taiwan wasn't really colonized until the 20th c. Would you call Ottoman Mesopotamia a colony?

Depends on whether or not thousands of people left Anatolia to settle in a primitive area before the 20th centuryIf so, yes.

There's also the movement of Chinese southward to settle Southern China, a process which took centuries.

Besides, the Chinese were familiar with wine, and grew wheat and millet. They didn't even start using rice as their staple until the Song Dynasty, in the 12th century.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Depends on whether or not thousands of people left Anatolia to settle in a primitive area before the 20th centuryIf so, yes.

There's also the movement of Chinese southward to settle Southern China, a process which took centuries.

Besides, the Chinese were familiar with wine, and grew wheat and millet. They didn't even start using rice as their staple until the Song Dynasty, in the 12th century.

The Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic state, and the people of Mesopotamia had a share in it. Regardless of whether Turks moved there or not, it was not a colony. Likewise, the gradual expansion of the range of Chinese people does not consitute colonialism. And try growing wheat or millet in Northern Australia.

 

[Faeelin]

The Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic state, and the people of Mesopotamia had a share in it. Regardless of whether Turks moved there or not, it was not a colony. Likewise, the gradual expansion of the range of Chinese people does not consitute colonialism. And try growing wheat or millet in Northern Australia.

It might not be colonialism, but the movement of thousands of people to an area certainly constitutes colonization, especially when they bring things like literacy.

 

[Condottiero]

Revision of part 2

Part 2

1250 Decomposition of the Mongol Empire, Kublai Khan rules the Eastern part of the Empire. The Khanates of the West fall into chaos.
1251 Growing tensions between the Pope and king Alfonso X because of his tolerance to the islamic and jewish minorities. The Holy See considers moving back to Italy once the Mongolian threat has stopped or to the more catholic lands of England.
1254 Gregory IX dies. The new Pope Innocent IV decides to return to Italy, the excuse are the Imperial plans to achieve the recovery of Rome.
1255 The Pope returns to Italy to Messina and calls for a crusade over the Mongolic heathens that occupy the peninsula.
1256 Uguda Khan declares himself Khan of the Franks after his victory over Henry of England in Orleans. His court starts to adopt certain western uses. However the mongolian ruling elites stick to their nestorianism and the political and economical center of the Khanate of the Franks remains the Hungarian plains. Occupied France has been almost depopulated by the Mongols trying to prevent the reconstrution of towns and castles that could favour a possible advance by the Anglo-Normans. Flanders and the Rhine had also suffered an intense depopulation and swamps and inundated areas dominate the landscape.
1257 In a daring attack by surprise Uguda's brother Khitia takes Constantinople and declares himself Khan of the Rum after killing the true Emperor. The occupation has been favoured by certain groups of byzantine nobles that seek to remove from them the Seljuk yoke. The orthodox clergy start an intense campaign to convert the new ruling class while byzantine noblemen try to attract to the luxuries of civilization the new rulers. However the Khan of the Rum still rules from his tent in central Anatolia.
1260-65 War between the Khanate of the Franks and the Khanate of the Rum. The Rum Khan transfers his court to Constantinople.
1261 Henry III takes advantage of the war and recovers almost all the kingdom of France. The Anglo-Normans had adopted some mongolian techniques such as the usage of mounted archers but they still lack their discipline.
1263 Alfonso XI married to the Portugese Queen Blanca I is crowned King of Castille, Navarre and Aragon. His son Rodrigo II will be the first Rex Hispaniorum. Some of the refugees that arrived during the last years brought with them books, codices and documents that will enrich hispanic universities and centres of culture such as Toledo's School of Translators. Palencia is now one of the most pretigious centers of education in western Europe.
1265-67 Alfonso XI launches an offensive over the taifa kingdom of Grenade that falls. He continues the offensive securing the northern coast of Africa. Fortunaterly the policy of tolerance with other minorities continue. In fact the army he sends to support the Romano-German Emperor Enrico VII consist basically on almoravid light cavalry.
1268 Enrico's crusade is a success and he manages to take most of Italy. The destruction of towns and the most populated areas is even more intense that during the fall of the Roman Empire. Venice has disappeared and in the north only Turin had been partially spared.
1272 Uguda Khan invades France taking advantage of the death of Henry III, retaking most of what was lost eleven years before. Peace of Orleans between the Anglo-Norman King, Edward I and Uguda Khan. The Khan of the Franks is impressed by the life in the anglo-norman court and starts adopting some western uses in his own court.
1279 Kublai Khan rules all China.
1283 The Japanese defeat an invading Chinese force.
1285-1293 War between the Khanate of the Franks allied to the Holy Roman Empire and the Khanate of Rum allied to the Anglo-Norman Kingdom. The result is more destruction in Europe and a weakening of the Khanates.
1289 Rodrigo II is crowned Rex Hispaniorum. A period of peace and prosperity starts in the Iberian peninsula. Hispania intensifies trade links between Northern Europe and Africa.
1301 Tufan is annexed to the Great Khan Empire.
1310 The hispanic sailor Don Álvaro de Niebla reaches the Sultanate of Mali.
1325 Expansion of the Sri Vijayan kingdom.
1327 Koryo is annexed to the Chinese Empire.
1335 Edward King of Scotland invades Ireland with the opposition of the Anglo-Norman Kingdom.
1337 The King of Mali arrives to Mecca as a pilgrim.
1342 A Chinese army is defeated in the North of Champa, but the Champans are finally subject to tribute to the Great Khan.
1344 Amda-Seyon becomes King of the New Ethiopian Kingdom.
1347 End of the Mongol domination of China.
1349 Decomposition of the Kingdom of Angkor.

 

[Condottiero]

Part 3

Part 3

1351 Agadai Khan of the Rum converts to Ortodox faith adopting the name of Alexander I Xanade and the title of Emperor of the Rum. His court and most of the mongol court adopt byzantine uses.
1353 The Almohades invade and destroy the Almoravid empire threatening Hispanian territories in North Africa.
1355 Alexander I invades Anatolia defeating the Seljuk army near Ancyra.
1357-1365 Rodrigo IV of Hispania declares a crusade and invades the Almohade Empire. The crusade ends with the destruction of the Almohades. The victory increases the Hispanic national pride and it starts an era of intolerance over islamic and jewish minorities. Most of the Hispanic muslims are "invited" to abandon the Iberian peninsula and settle in the newly acquired territories.
1363 Ottoman victory over a combined Mongol army near Kiev. The Khan of the Franks dies in the battle.
1365 The Ottomans continue their advance defeating one Frank army by the Vistula river.
1374 Khitan Khan of the Franks decides to convert to Catholicism and to adopt the title of King of Saxony. He is crowned in Turin by Pope Innocent IV who proclaims a crusade over the ottomans.
1376 The Livonians are defeated but they manage to save most of their army.
1379 Rebelion of the islamic population in Morocco.
1381 The ottomans are stopped by a Saxon and Anglo-Norman force near Viena.
1382 Scottish ships start exploring the African coast.
A Ming army defeats the Mongols in Yunnan.
1383 Rodrigo IV dies in campaign against the islamic rebels. His brother Enrique III assumes the Hispanic throne.
1387 Pope Innocent IV appoints Simon Haraldson as bishop of the new diocese of Nova Thule (OTL Terranova).
1385 Enrique III ends the Moroccan rebelion. The surviving muslim population is forced to convert or being exiled ("Act of Conversion"). The order is not fully obeyed but only a fraction of the islamic population remains.
The Hispanic king gives "Fueros" to all new christian settlements in Morocco, in order to attract settlers rumour of a miraculous image found in Marraketch spreads over Western Europe.
1402 Zhu Di ("Yaounle") becomes Emperor of China.
1405-1407 First expedition of Zheng He. Chinese protectorade over Sri Vijaya and Sri Lanka. His fleet reaches the coast of Yin-du.
1410 The Scottish reach the Gulf of Guinea.
1422 Zhu Di dies and his son Zhu Gaozhi cancels the Treasure Fleet program.
1431 Scottish sailor Angus McPherson reaches the Skeleton Coast by the Namib desert.
1432 The new Emperor Zhu Zanji decides to renew the Treasure Fleets.
1433 Zeng He dies after having performed seven voyages.
Songhai rebellion, the Kingdom of Mali is destroyed with some help from Hispania, that seizes part of the coast as payment.
1435 Hispania recovers from the "Act of Conversion" consequences and under Rodrigo III lives a new era of progress and tolerance. The Gotho-mudejar cathedral of Marraketch is finished.
1440 The Ethiopian Solomonid Kings continue their presure over the Egyptians defeating them with the help of Ming guns and ships. King Beide-Maryan signs a cooperation treaty with the Chinese Ambassador ceding them some lands aroun Cape Guardafu to found a colony there.
1442 An Hispanic fleet invades the Kingdom of Songhai taking a coastal region.
1448 Chinese colonies founded in Uo Zhu (Australia), Mal Ga Yi (Magadascar) and Fei Zhou (Somalia).
1450 Scottish and Chinese ships contact in the Cape region. The first enconter is unfortunately hostile.

(to be continued)