Ogadai survives a bit more

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Condottiero, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. Molobo Banned

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    Yes, ethnicly.97 % of Population are ethnic Poles.
    There was a great deal of tolerance in Poland so each ethnic group kept to itself and had no need to blend in the society.


    The problem is that Mongols never conquered Poland.

    You are quite silly in this.Germans and Poles rarely married, the same with Russians.Mongols never conquered Poland, and Vikings had almost none impact on our culture.Likewise Tatars never mixed with Poles much having their own territory in Polish Commonwealth.Despite having many ethnic groups , the Polish society wasn't melting pot of people but rather a territory inhabited by many groups having their own life.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12107446&dopt=Abstract

     
  2. Leo Caesius Banned

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    That would make Poland pretty much unique in the annals of history.
     
  3. MerryPrankster Donor

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    They're interesting and they got screwed over by history.
     
  4. Molobo Banned

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    Well Poland's Commonwealth was unique in treatment of religious and ethnic groups compered to other European countries during that region.The same applies to invidual rights.
    Allthough Wikipedia is generally shallow in my opinion you may check out this links:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth
    As to Tatars :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

    All Tatars enjoyed the status of nobility and as such took part in democratic liberties that Nobility had in Poland.
     
  5. Molobo Banned

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    The word liberties is used by historians though.
     
  6. Molobo Banned

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    A flawed argument-they were slaves in Athens but nobody denies Athens had democracy.
    Likewise despite the existence of serfs the term Noble's Democracy is widely widespread and used by historians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlachta
    (only a fragment)
    Now perhaps we can move back on topic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2005
  7. Hermanubis Murderfing threads sense 2004!

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    How possible is it, do you think, that Europe would become sort of a Giant Russia? (wait, err, an even bigger Russia. Ah, well, you know what I mean…)
     
  8. MerryPrankster Donor

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    LOL!!!!! Pure genius, Leo.

    (eyes roll back in head) Mother of Christ...NOT Mother of God...Constantinople wrong...
     
  9. Molobo Banned

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    Nope.Under your opinion Athens didn't have a democracy ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_election
    Free election
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    Of course you are free to argue that a system where legislation is made by voting of citizens, the King is elected by them has nothing to do with democracy.

    Anyway this is interesting topic Leo-and perhaps you should continue your attempts to pick at Poland on another thread instead of hijacking this one ok ?
     
  10. Molobo Banned

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    That is silly as members of inner circle weren't the only citizens of SU.
    Bad day at work or something else ? Anyway the acknowledgment that Noble's Democracy was democratic in its structure and workings is commonly accepted, and I see no "nationalistic propaganda" in it.
    Ah, so you are just a troll then.

    Not my problem if you want to remain ignorant and refuse to educate yourself.After all, you admited that you are just interested in trolling.

    But thanks from hijacking this thread Leo.I hope you keep your word.
     
  11. MerryPrankster Donor

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    AAAAAARRRRRRGGHH!

    Poland was what we could call an "aristocratic republic," like the Draka. However, since most of the population could not participate in the government, it could not be called particularly democratic.

    And yes, I know that Athenian democracy excluded most of the population (slaves and women), but poor Athenian freemen could participate in the elections.

    The Nestorian Candidate says we should get back on topic.

    Hmm...I think I'll attach that to my s/n.
     
  12. Hermanubis Murderfing threads sense 2004!

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    I second......................
     
  13. Molobo Banned

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    Yes because we know Poland was a vicious slave holding murderous tyranny. :rolleyes:


    As freemen in Poland readily got noble's status and later took part in Sejm that is not an argument.

    But yes let's return to the topic interrupted by Leo's rude comments.
     
  14. MerryPrankster Donor

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    In the sense of being isolated, xenophobic, and influenced by the cultural traditions of Oriental Despotism? Quite possibly... :(
     
  15. Leo Caesius Banned

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    Was that intended as some crude attempt to goad me?

    You of all people have absolutely no reason to be condemning others as "rude" or "trolls."

    But, in the interest of paying due respect to the others, I've eliminated my rather small contributions to this discussion. There still remains, of course, the 4000+ words of irrelevant information about the history of Poland which you've cribbed from Wikipedia and which have already filled up most of the page.

    Regarding the survival of ethnic traces of the Mongols in Central Europe - even if the Mongols were eventually driven out there would most likely be communities of their descendants scattered throughout the continent, increasing as one heads east. People aren't like paint, you know; the colors don't simply mix together, but instead dominant traits get expressed increasingly often and recessive traits less so. One generation might favor the mother in some respects and the father in others, but that could change in future generations. The result would be a mixed population of which most members recognizably pertain to one or the other phenotype, just like in Turkey. You'd have Central-Asian looking people, Mediterranean types, and blonde Nordic types, all together. It is unlikely that any one of these would be wiped out (unless there were some kind of genocide) but the ratios might change slowly over time depending on the rate of population movements into and out of the country. As the population became more mixed, children resembling each of these types would be born to a single pair of parents, even if the parents themselves appear to be fairly homogenous.

    If any of you have examined the late Roman encaustic mummy portraits from the Fayyum in Egypt, you'll see what I mean. The people depicted in these portraits are remarkably similar to the people living in Egypt today, despite the fact that Egypt has been the crossroads of so many civilizations and has been ruled by so many different groups. Of course, as you travel south, people get darker and start to resemble the Sudanese more closely, and in the north they have a tendency to look more Mediterranean, but both types are prevalent throughout the country.
     
  16. Ian the Admin Administrator Donor

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    Molobo, haven't I told you *many* times to stop with these barrages of rude, trolling crap?

    Yeah, I have.

    Banned.
     
  17. MerryPrankster Donor

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    Now Molobo's gone, I guess we can continue the discussion.

    I've added "The Nestorian Candidate" to my s/n. Thanks for the idea, Leo.

    EDIT: Time to add Molobo to the list of the Fallen for "AH.com, the Series." A new Fallen, perhaps in denial about his evil nature?
     
  18. Condottiero Knight of the Square Table

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    I like this idea, in fact it was one of the hypotesis I was working on... The byzantines could win for them the Rum Khan. He could convert to the orthodox faith and become Emperor with a Greek name (the Khanides dinasty :D ). The Orthodox would be mixed with nestorian, catholic and even some small islamic contributions.

    The Khan of the Franks could eventually convert to catholicism or receiving strong population groups from the turks (the seljucs expelled by the Mongols and Byzantines, and the ottomans coming from the Caucasus). What do you think?

    As for the western part I'll bet for an scandinavian expansion in north America, while Hispania expands in Africa.

    One more thing, do you thing Ming China could become a colonial power with possesions in Indonesia, Australia, India, Africa and even Arabia?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2005
  19. Hendryk Banned

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    I don't think Ming China would go after "possessions" in settled areas like Indonesia, India or Arabia. More likely, they would satellize local kingdoms and, in exchange for formal acknowledgement of their vassal status and the periodical sending of tribute, make them their privileged trading partners as well as protect them from outside interference. These places would soon be home to large overseas Chinese communities attracted by business opportunities.
    In Africa and Australia, the Chinese presence would initially be limited to trading outposts, but should demographic growth in China lead to a shortage of arable land (or should protracted war or anarchy make the situation unberable), you may have actual large-scale migratory movements to those "new lands". However, Chinese settlements would be concentrated on the coastlines and fertile lowlands, leaving the hinterland natives more or less alone.
     
  20. Aussey absolute-primogeniturist

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    My Second Attempt at a Flag for the Kingdom of Hispania:
     

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