Ogadai survives a bit more

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Maybe the mongols could have used the black death against well fortified towns.

The impression that plague is only dangerous to urban centers is false. Smallpox and other such diseases are caused by intensive animal husbandry, but plague was caused by Ethiopian hamsters (chomik to you Poles) spreading out of their normal range due to environmental factors. The Mongols are going to be hit too if they're where the rats and fleas are, and a million or so horses and their fodder is not good news on that count.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I don’t remember the Mongols ever going in for vast population movements like that…

The Mongols moved around themselves, and when they wanted to replenish their numbers, just nomadized sedentary populations, largely by carrying off the women and children.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The amount of people in western and central europe compared to eastern europe at the time is huge. Any Mongols or other Aisans that settled in that area of europe that mixed with the locals would be quickly assimilated, leaving little proof they had been there.

After the Great Plague several thousands of slaves from Africa were imported into places like Italy to replace lost workers. How much did that influence the complexion of Italians?

The population of Anatolia in 1071 was pretty large too, but it quickly got entirely Turkified.

The Mongols will dismantle the Agricultural infrastructure, and that plus the process of conquest will drastically reduce the population of Europe (not to mention the plague). The conquest will also open up Europe to a huge flood of Turkic settlers, as did the Seljuk victory at Manzikert. Also, the European population will recede in the face of the Mongol advance.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The amount of people in western and central europe compared to eastern europe at the time is huge. Any Mongols or other Aisans that settled in that area of europe that mixed with the locals would be quickly assimilated, leaving little proof they had been there.

After the Great Plague several thousands of slaves from Africa were imported into places like Italy to replace lost workers. How much did that influence the complexion of Italians?

A lot. The "Italians" at the time of the plague were largely Germanic people with blue eyes and blonde hair. You'll note that's not so much the case now. Also, "several thousands" (and they were generally not black in any case) is not the same as several hundred thousand, after the population was savaged far more than in OTL.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So no ethnic trace then... it's a pity. Maybe we can keep some cultural aspects and the titles: the Khan of the Franks/of the Rum/....

I have modified the map and I am working on the next chapter of the TL:

I don't agree that there will be no ethnic trace. Molobo and other Poles will confirm that there are many Poles that not only have dark features but often Tatar-sounding names. There will certainly be an ethnic trace, which will if anything be more pronounced in Northern climes, as fair features are recessive.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So, the Khans of Rum are Nestorians? Have their beliefs filtered down into the Orthodox population or is Nestorianism simply confined to the ruling class?

Hmm...will the populace revolt if "Mother of Christ" replaces "Mother of God" as the official title of the Virgin Mary? That might be the only major change the Nestorian rulers impose, religiously at least?

If there is an analogue to Protestantism in TTL, might the Protestants find allies in Rum?

You are obsessed with Nestorians. Why?

 

[Aussey]

My first try at the European khanate flag:

 

[Nicole]

The flag would probably be simpler... maybe just red with the black eagle?

 

[Leo Caesius]

You are obsessed with Nestorians. Why?

While he was on a mission for his church, he was abducted by a secret society of Soviet Assyrian irredentists and subjected to a battery of brainwashing techniques perfected in Russia under the direction of Dr. Ivan Pavlov. After the Assyrians were satisfied with his treatment, they released him back into society with a hypnotic suggestion to await further orders. Apparently the trigger for this suggestion was anything to do with Turkish or Mongolian TLs.

They call him The Nestorian Candidate.

 

[Aussey]

The invading Mongols, would be shocked at the splendor and symbols of Central Europe. So they;ll put the horse of their Ukarine khanate on the HRE Eagle, with Mongolian colors.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

A couple of comments:

- I don't really see Ottomans developing in this TL; they were the result of being placed on the Byzantine frontier where they were able to capitalize on the campaigns against the dying empire, absorbing traditions and ideas from Byzantium, Persia, the Arab world, and Central Asia. In this TL, they are likely to be just another tribal group in the Mongol hordes.

You could argue that the founders were extremely talented and thus establish them somewhere, but they will not be OUR Ottomans.

- It doesn't seem likely to me that the Seljuks will survive this; they are too potent for the Mongols to leave intact in such a critical location. Perhaps a Mongol thrust into Asia Minor, plus Western preoccupation with the Mongol invasion, might actually allow a Byzantine revival! If anyone has the diplomatic chops to talk the Mongols away from them, it's the Byzantines, who don't really have anything they want anyway. Without pressure from Venice, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the Seljuks/Ottomans, there is really nothing to prevent the Byzantines from regaining lost ground. As allies of the Mongols they would actually be quite useful, and you could even see some Orthodox Khanates.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

While he was on a mission for his church, he was abducted by a secret society of Soviet Assyrian irredentists and subjected to a battery of brainwashing techniques perfected in Russia under the direction of Dr. Ivan Pavlov. After the Assyrians were satisfied with his treatment, they released him back into society with a hypnotic suggestion to await further orders. Apparently the trigger for this suggestion was anything to do with Turkish or Mongolian TLs.

They call him The Nestorian Candidate.

Ugh, I saw the last line coming and it still made me roll my eyes so far into the back of my head that I can see yesterday.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The more I think about it, the more I see the likelihood of the Byzantines pulling one out of the hat in this scenario.

Here is a map as of 1278, but most of this would have been recovered by 1261, when they recovered Constantinople. If Venice and Genoa are sacked by the Mongols, much of the Aegean will easily revert to Byzantium, and they will recover control over their trade. Having the Bulgars and Serbs crushed leaves no northern threat (other than the Mongols, who would have to cross the Balkans, and there is little to be gained by doing so), no maritime threat, and only petty emirates in Anatolia. Why not a Byzantine revival? This TL happens to place an incredibly talented and Machiavellian ruler on the throne in Michael Palaiologos. An alliance between the Mongols and Byzantines has much to offer both sides - the Byzantines would likely have to accept vassalage, but that can also mean protection...

 

[Molobo]

Molobo and other Poles will confirm that there are many Poles that not only have dark features but often Tatar-sounding names.

Poles aren't tall blonde blue eyed people to begin with
IIRC around 5000 Tatars are still in Poland.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Poles aren't tall blonde blue eyed people to begin with
IIRC around 5000 Tatars are still in Poland.

True, but they weren't originally so diverse as they are today. I suppose much of that is due to the huge Jewish population that was there for so long...

 

[Molobo]

True, but they weren't originally so diverse as they are today. I suppose much of that is due to the huge Jewish population that was there for so long...

Pasha-Poles are the one of the most monolithic country on this planet when it comes to ethnicity.
As to Jewish population-they kept out of society and mostly intermarried among themselfs.
But that is off-topic I guess.

 

[Leo Caesius]

As to Jewish population-they kept out of society and mostly intermarried among themselfs.

You think so? The wife of Leslie Slote (spokesperson Robert Wagner and John D. Rockefeller) was an Israeli of Polish descent. She was a femme fatale - tall, blonde hair, blue eyes. Really one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. I'd imagine that she and many other Polish Jews would be quite at home in Poland today; you'd probably never know that they were Jewish.

Some of you may remember Leslie Slote from his famous exchange with Henry Kissinger:

Kissinger: So just how do you propose to get our troops out of Vietnam, Mr. Slote?

Slote: By boat, sir. By boat.​

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Pasha-Poles are the one of the most monolithic country on this planet when it comes to ethnicity.
As to Jewish population-they kept out of society and mostly intermarried among themselfs.
But that is off-topic I guess.

Perhaps linguistically monolithic, but ethnically? I think it is on-topic because Poland serves as an example of what might have happened if the Mongols had overrun more of Europe

Poles range from dark and hairy to redhead (Norwegian trait left by Vikings) to downright Turkish-looking, to blonde and blue-eyed; given the history, the commonwealth with Lithuania, the Teutonic Knights, the Jews (10% of the population, and even if they keep to themselves, there is ALWAYS mixing), conquest by Germans and Russians (several times), the presence of Hanseatic cities, conquest of parts of Bielorus and Ukraine after WWI, the country physically picked up and moved after WWII, not to mention Kashubs, Tatars, Golden Horde, etc, there is just about everything in Polish blood. Genetic tests show that 1 in 200 Eurasians are descendents of Gengiz Khan - maybe you could be the next Mongol ruler.

 

[Faeelin]

A lot. The "Italians" at the time of the plague were largely Germanic people with blue eyes and blonde hair. You'll note that's not so much the case now. Also, "several thousands" (and they were generally not black in any case) is not the same as several hundred thousand, after the population was savaged far more than in OTL.

Err, where'd you hear this?

 

[Faeelin]

The population of Anatolia in 1071 was pretty large too, but it quickly got Turkified over a process lasting for centuries.

I corrected your typo.

Also, wasn't Anatolia being deserted before 1071? IIRC, the Byzantine nobles were confiscating small estates, and raising... sheep.

The Mongols will dismantle the Agricultural infrastructure, and that plus the process of conquest will drastically reduce the population of Europe (not to mention the plague). The conquest will also open up Europe to a huge flood of Turkic settlers, as did the Seljuk victory at Manzikert. Also, the European population will recede in the face of the Mongol advance.

While I could see the Mongols on the plains of Hungary (barely) my question is: why?

I mean, look at what the Mongols did pretty much everywhere but in Russia. They assimilated pretty quickly.